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    is/are?

    Which is correct?

    Manchester United are 8th in the league

    Manchester United is 8th in the league

    There is only one club so why do we use "are"?

    #2
    Are is "correct" in the UK, is in the USA.

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      #3
      So what makes them a plurality - fans, players?

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        #4
        They are a team (in theory anyway)

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          #5
          Though if you're searching for logic you're likely to end up disappointed

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            #6
            See, eg, this discussion. Though as noted by LL here, it's far from an absolute rule. It is however particularly strong for sports teams.

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              #7
              For a singular collective noun the trick is to see if it makes sense with 'The' in front of it. If 'the' seems sensible, then use 'is.' If it doesn't, use 'are.'

              The army is on the march. Sounds sensible. The armies are on the march sounds sensible, as 'armies' is plural collective.

              The Manchester United ... stop there, it sounds stupid, unless followed by a plural noun like 'fans.'

              Perhaps.

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                #8
                Consecutive lines:

                Oliver's army is here to stay
                Oliver's army are on their way

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                  #9
                  Technically it should probably be 'is', given that 'Manchester United' is one entity. Ditto 'U2 is playing Toronto next week'.

                  However, because that sounds so clunky (and, yes, American), I just can't get my head around it - especially in the latter case.

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                    #10
                    Trouble is, people think language is logical, especially as it has "rules".

                    It isn't.

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                      #11
                      I would definitely say "Manchester United are about to sack their manager", not "Manchester United is about to sack its manager".

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                        #12
                        Either way I hope you're right

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                          #13
                          There's a context thing though. An article that started out "Manchester United is an institution in the North East" or "Manchester United is a football club in England" would probably both be 'right' depending on where you read it. If the writer is explaining what the football club is then 'is' is probably the way to go.

                          Originally posted by Lurgee View Post
                          For a singular collective noun the trick is to see if it makes sense with 'The' in front of it. If 'the' seems sensible, then use 'is.' If it doesn't, use 'are.'

                          The army is on the march. Sounds sensible. The armies are on the march sounds sensible, as 'armies' is plural collective.

                          The Manchester United ... stop there, it sounds stupid, unless followed by a plural noun like 'fans.'

                          Perhaps.
                          Except if you were following 'The Manchester United' with a plural noun you would surely use 'are'. The Manchester United fans are revolting. A singular noun and you would use is. The Manchester United fan is revolting.

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                            #14
                            The Wolves? The Spurs? The Wednesday?

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                              #15
                              I like how you left the Woolwich Exiles out of that list

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                                #16
                                The North East?

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                  The Wolves? The Spurs? The Wednesday?
                                  The first two follow Lurgee's rules don't they? Wolves and Spurs are plurals.

                                  Sheffield Wednesday probably have a law unto themselves.

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                                    #18
                                    Harlequins have been putting out their press releases and website/social media with "is".

                                    E.g. Harlequins is pleased to announce the signing of another permacrocked SH superstar squad filler.

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Capybara View Post
                                      The North East?
                                      Quite, they're barely even in the North.

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Aitch View Post
                                        Consecutive lines:

                                        Oliver's army is here to stay
                                        Oliver's army are on their way
                                        good spot

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Aitch View Post
                                          Consecutive lines:

                                          Oliver's army is here to stay
                                          Oliver's army are on their way
                                          Seems to challenge my suggestion of last night, as if you substitute 'the' for 'Oliver' both make sense. 'The army is here to stay. The Army are on their way.'

                                          But then, I'm reading what I posted last night and thinking, 'What the Hell does any of that that even mean?'

                                          In the second line, Mr Costello's choice of 'their' (plural pronoun) makes 'are' necessary, innit?

                                          'Oliver's army are on its way' sounds like something Trump would tweet, only stupider. If he'd decided to stick to the singular, and written 'Oliver's army is on its way' we wouldn't bat an eye.
                                          Last edited by Lurgee; 14-11-2018, 18:51.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Aitch View Post
                                            Consecutive lines:

                                            Oliver's army is here to stay
                                            Oliver's army are on their way
                                            Don't start me talking about grammar and linguistics. I could talk all night.

                                            The two lines make perfect sense, because we're looking at two different aspects of Oliver's army.

                                            In the first, it's the institution of the army that's here to stay, in the second it's the soldiers of Oliver's army marching off.

                                            It's a nice nuance that's not possible in many dialects or languages. For example in German, in addition to sports teams and armies and suchlike, die Polizei always takes a singular verb, so you would always say the police is looking into it.

                                            "Data" is the one that does my head in. Loads of style guides insist that (partly because of Latin, I suppose) it's plural, but it just sounds so weird. For me, it's an uncountable thing like sand or salt. Or indeed pease.
                                            Last edited by Alderman Barnes; 14-11-2018, 21:25.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Aitch View Post
                                              Consecutive lines:

                                              Oliver's army is here to stay
                                              Oliver's army are on their way
                                              Well, it's not altogether inconsistent. Oliver's army (should be upper case, really) which takes notional residence "here" is a single entity. It's constituent parts are at this point changeable. But as Oliver's army starts moving, with its individual members in motion as they are on their way, the constituent parts are not changeable.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Alderman Barnes View Post
                                                Don't start me talking about grammar and linguistics. I could talk all night.

                                                The two lines make perfect sense, because we're looking at two different aspects of Oliver's army.

                                                In the first, it's the institution of the army that's here to stay, in the second it's the soldiers of Oliver's army marching off.

                                                It's a nice nuance that's not possible in many dialects or languages. For example in German, in addition to sports teams and armies and suchlike, die Polizei always takes a singular verb, so you would always say the police is looking into it.

                                                "Data" is the one that does my head in. Loads of style guides insist that (partly because of Latin, I suppose) it's plural, but it just sounds so weird. For me, it's an uncountable thing like sand or salt. Or indeed pease.
                                                Brava AB.

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                                                  #25
                                                  The sports pages of Aus/NZ papers would routinely have agency reports from both UK and USA, with their particular usage. A sub-editor would try and hammer them into some kind of consistent pattern.

                                                  Nowadays the subs are gone and the reports are just reproduced online in the original (more or less), which is clear enough if it's AP on baseball and the PA on cricket, but causes some confusion if it's a pre-season tour of the USA by Man United, set alongside a season preview from the Telegraph.

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