Speaking of going to Canada

[DCI Harry Batt]

Have we done the US soldiers who have gone AWOL and escaped north of the border?

I'm at work right now, so I can't dig out the articles I've read on the subject, but there has been one case of someone being sent back, and a parliamentary motion that it shouldn't happen again, which the government is ignoring.

Anyone noticed it as a story? Anyone have any opinions?

[Guest]

Speaking of going to Canada

(sorry I just had to tell you I posted a bear story on the other Canada thread)

[DCI Harry Batt]

Speaking of going to Canada

Ta

Here's an article on the subject.

Corey is part of a growing number of US troops who are refusing to deploy or re-deploy to Iraq in opposition to the war. In 2007 close to 5,000 US troops deserted. This figure is up 42 percent over 2006. An estimated 200 of these war resisters are currently in Canada.

The reason for this is not simply proximity. During the Vietnam War tens of thousands of young Americans who refused the draft or deserted from the US military came to Canada.

This history, along with Canada not sending troops to Iraq, has been the basis for many people's decision to travel north. But while polls show a majority of Canadians support war resisters staying in Canada, successive Canadian governments have been less than welcoming.

[WOM]

Speaking of going to Canada

I like our history of allowing 'conscientious objectors' to stay. However, it also implicitly says 'if you've broken the law back home, you can come here'. And that's certainly not what we want to convey.

But when it comes to Iraq, I say 'let 'em all come'.

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

As I've noted repeatedly on here, I was raised to be a conscientious objector. It's why I chose to learn French as my first foreign language and why we made annual trips to Canada throughout the late 60s and early 70s. When my dear departed mother offered to "shoot off your toes or drive you to Canada" I didn't really have to think too hard.

Nonetheless, I believe that one can draw a line between draft resisters and those who enlisted in a completely voluntary army and have now decided that they don't want to serve.

That said, if I was a Canadian MP, I would vote in favour of an amnesty, as this is very, very far from a just war, and I believe that the record of US draft resisters is ultimately quite in favour of their contribution to Canadian society. At the same time, anyone who makes that move without being willing to renounce their US citizenship completely and forever is beneath contempt in my book.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Speaking of going to Canada

Why?

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

Sorry, but why what?

[Reed John]

Speaking of going to Canada

I don't know what I would do in that situation.

Options, with pro and con:

1) Go to jail. At first look it seems to be the most honorable way. Like Mohammed Ali. After all, why should one have to renounce one's citizenship. It's not myfault they are fucking up our country and somebody else's country. If anyone should have to denounce their citizenship it's fuckers like Bush, Rove, Cheney or in the Vietnam example, McNamara, Nixon, etc. But on the other hand, it's also not just to have to go to jail for refusing to fight an unjust war for those fuckers. And I wouldn't want to get ass-raped.

2) Leave the country. Canada is very nice, and one's relatives and friends could still come up and visit you. And it's certainly better than jail or war. So that's appealing. But again, why should I have to quit the country, when I'm the one doing the right thing? It seems like a capitulation to the bastards.

3) Enlist/stay enlisted and go to war. The downsides of this are obvious.

The merits of this depend on whether there's a draft or not. If there isn't a draft, then nobody who understands what is really going on should sign up. The more people willing to join the military, the easier it's going to be for the fuckers to conduct these wars. If you already enlisted before you realize what's really going on, I think the ethical thing to do is to try to mitigate the evil however you can from the inside. Maybe have some influence on how the war is actually executed. Maybe you could save some lives. If that doesn't seem feasible, then deserting to Canada or wherever may be the best option. Of course, in a volunteer army that would mean reneging on a contract, but I think some things are more important than a contract.

In a draft situation, if I don't go, then some other poor schmuck is going to go instead. My act of resistance isn't going to help that much, so maybe going along with it and trying to be the most ethical soldier you can be is the best option. Or, better yet, find a completely legal and legit way to get out of the draft, like my dad did. The government decided that his teaching as a grad student at Iowa State was a worthy reason not to be drafted. He didn't have to kill anybody and the government was satisfied with his effort. Win-Win, I guess.

I don't really know. I find all three of these arguments convincing. I'm just grateful that it's very unlikely that I'll ever have to make the choice.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Speaking of going to Canada

At the same time, anyone who makes that move without being willing to renounce their US citizenship completely and forever is beneath contempt in my book.

That bit. I'm intrigued.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Speaking of going to Canada

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

Of course, in a volunteer army that would mean reneging on a contract, but I think some things are more important than a contract.

The thing is, once you enlist, you have to obey orders (provided they are lawful, which orders to ship out to Iraq most certainly are, whatever you think of the war as a whole). The entire doctrine of civilian command over the military - which is arguably one the fundamental bargains on which any democratic society rests - rests on this. If you let that one go, imagine what other orders the military might choose to ignore.

As several have commented, it's different if you're being drafted against your will. But if you signed up, I don't think you have a choice. Indeed, I'm not sure democracies can afford to give you that choice.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Speaking of going to Canada

Well you'll not be surprised to find I don't agree, AG.

You could argue about "volunteer" - the lies that are told to get youngsters (kids in the UK) to sign up, the economic conditions which make those lies attractive.

But ignoring all that and more, I'm still happy for someone who has signed up to come to his or her senses, decide it's a bloody stupid thing to do, and want to go / stay home.

US / UK soldiers have no right, as far as I'm concerned, to be in Iraq. It's better for the world as a whole if they refuse to go. I'm pleased that thousands have, I wish thousands more would.

[Reed John]

Speaking of going to Canada

I agree that democracies can't afford an army that does whatever it wants to, but I would exclude "refusing to muster" for an immoral war as a problem. In my view, that falls under the category of unlawful orders.

[Incandenza]

Speaking of going to Canada

Amy Goodman has done a fair bit of coverage of soldiers that have gone to Canada on Democracy Now. I don't have any specific links though, sorry.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Speaking of going to Canada

Not surprised at all, TT.

But this may reflect differences in our opinions about the importance of a functioning and effective military. I think soldiers doing what you suggest would cause incalculable damage to the army's (and the government's) ability to control its troops, which would have very serious long-term implications which would outweigh any short-term benefits. Would it be fair to say that you don't place as much importance on the long-term implications as I do?

[Reed John]

Speaking of going to Canada

But I think there's an important difference in the government's ability to control the people who have weapons and the government's ability to compel people to fight.

An army that is running around under it's own command is a threat to everything. A bunch of people going awol isn't much of a threat to anything.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Speaking of going to Canada

I think soldiers doing what you suggest would cause incalculable damage to the army's (and the government's) ability to control its troops, which would have very serious long-term implications

You say that like it's a bad thing, AG.

(I do think it's important, though. I think a non-functioning US military would be a great thing.)

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

TT, the vehemence of my language on the renouncing of citizenship point reflects some unpleasant personal experience (as well as fatigue and a couple of glasses of wine).

Basically, I have a problem with those who have chosen to desert, seek refuge in another country and eagerly accept all of the benefits of living in said country, yet still hold themselves out as US citizens (and in some cases spend a good deal of their time in Canada complaining about how it isn't the US). Trying to have it both ways in that manner is to me both intrinsically reprehensible and particularly disrespectful of their former colleagues who are fighting and dying in their stead (many of whom share the same revulsion at this particular war).

I don't claim in any way that such people represent a majority of those in exile, but there were enough such people in the 70s (which is the relevant period for me personally) for me to have formed that view.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Speaking of going to Canada

TonTon wrote:

I think soldiers doing what you suggest would cause incalculable damage to the army's (and the government's) ability to control its troops, which would have very serious long-term implications

You say that like it's a bad thing, AG.

Haha! I thought that was it.

[Gangster Octopus]

Speaking of going to Canada

'Course, once you've moved to Canada, you can visit Cuba as often as you want...

[Amor de Cosmos]

Speaking of going to Canada

In a draft situation, if I don't go, then some other poor schmuck is going to go instead. My act of resistance isn't going to help that much,

I know this can be argued but I'm convinced, and will almost certainly remain so for the rest of my life, that draft resistance was a significant — maybe the most significant — factor in turning the tide of public opinion against the war in Vietnam. You could see it happening day by day, trust me, you really could.

Basically, I have a problem with those who have chosen to desert, seek refuge in another country and eagerly accept all of the benefits of living in said country, yet still hold themselves out as US citizens (and in some cases spend a good deal of their time in Canada complaining about how it isn't the US).

What about those who don't desert but leave the country voluntarily for similar reasons? Should they relinquish their passport too?

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

I agree with the first point (though I don't think it was the most significant factor).

And no, to me desertion is rather different than voluntary expatriation. The question does make realise that I should have specified that it is a given that the host country would have to grant the person citizenship (which is most definitely not the case with many expats, including us).

[Reed John]

Speaking of going to Canada

I know this can be argued but I'm convinced, and will almost certainly remain so for the rest of my life, that draft resistance was a significant — maybe the most significant — factor in turning the tide of public opinion against the war in Vietnam. You could see it happening day by day, trust me, you really could.

It might have made an impact on public opinion, but it didn't make much of an impact on the total number of people, American, Vietnamese and other that were getting killed over there day by day. That's what I meant.

And in any event, I'm of the opinion that public opinion against the war didn't do as much to end it as the fact that it was unwinnable to begin with and that the best the people leading the war could hope for was to make the North Vietnamese/Communist/Ho Chi Minh's victory a pyhrric one. And to a large extent they achieved that.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Speaking of going to Canada

Ursus: Sorry I'm trying to understand the core of your anger. It's not that they've deserted per se; it's that they're able to retain US citizenship while doing so? Or that, while living in Canada (or wherever) they consider themselves Americans on an extended vacation?

And I agree with what you say below re: Vietnam

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

Whereas I would argue that public opinion led those leading the war to that realization. It certainly wasn't part of their original assessment nor the vast majority of their strategy before the very end.

In related news, draft boards are still with us.

[ursus arctos]

Speaking of going to Canada

Amor, the "extended vacation" metaphor is the closest.

As I've mentioned before, the War was very much the defining political event of my late childhood/early adolesence, and the idea of going to Canada was something that I took extremely seriously (perhaps in a way that only an adolescent could). As a result, I was personally offended (again, perhaps in a way that only an adolescent could be) by people who had enlisted (at a time when the kind of pro-volunteer army propaganda that TonTon correctly castigates was much less prevalent) and then deserted, but were unwilling to embrace the country that gave them refuge.

It's quite an emotional topic for me, and I recognise that my feelings may well have long ago overwhelmed by ability to analyse the situation rationally.