Antisemitism and contemporary politics

[ad hoc]

Yeah - the ‘genetic’ part was 99% dramatic hyperbole.

But can a deep groupthink be passed-on generationally via societal engineering?

Well hatred and fear of "the other" gets passed on from generation to generation (largely I'd suggest because people in power know that the best way to preserve or extend power is to turn the powerless against each other). This is true of all forms of racism. The church has/had a particular role in the promulgation of anti semitism so in that regard it may be deeper rooted

[johnr]

Yeah - the ‘genetic’ part was 99% dramatic hyperbole.

But can a deep groupthink be passed-on generationally via societal engineering?

Groupthink, and attitudes passing down, are of course at the route of much racism. Not sure what you mean by 'societal engineering' though. Am also not sure that Jesus was generally - even in the anglo-centric West - presented as blonde-haired, my memory was that it was/is generally dark hair.

[Freestyling buck wilding Stijn Stijnen]

Is that on?
Going so far down a road in a debate before citing insomnia and then throwing shade before ducking out altogether?

Anyway, as for Jewish people being singled out - based on subconscious sadness for Jesus or otherwise - racially motivated attacks and hate crimes have affected all groups.
In cases of attacks based on an individuals perceived religion, 3,530 were carried out on muslim peoples (47%), with 1,326 (18%) carried out against jewish peoples based on government statistics. (The link of which i've attempted to include in this post)

https://assets.publishing.service.go...9-hosb2419.pdf

[ad hoc]

Let's not start down the "who gets it worse" road. One hate crime is one too many

[Freestyling buck wilding Stijn Stijnen]

I don't recall starting from a premise that one group of people have it worse than another via reverence for Jesus tbf.
Point/counterpoint

[Nefertiti2]

Agreed.

I would say that getting things in proportion is also important.

I find it deeply offensive when people make comparisons between Corbyn/Labour and the Sho'ah.

There is a difference between inappropriate Facebook postings and mass extermination. MIcro-aggressions and hostilities and fears can be very upsetting. they should not be equated with genocide.

As I said earlier Posty I think the fact that written records about the Jewish experience go back so far is one reason why the story of the Jews seems of a different nature.I think its because the records date back to the Pharaohs, rather than that the story of oppression is in itself unique. We don't know the story of the Roma, say, in the same detail, but if you think about it the history of every human family goes back the same number of years.

Its a very difficult subject and respect to Posty for tackling in so openly in a public forum. He's also in a different timezone than we Europeans

[Etienne]

Absolutely.

[Posty Webber]

I don't recall starting from a premise that one group of people have it worse than another via reverence for Jesus tbf.
Point/counterpoint

Fuck you on about?

Read my post again.

Nef said “the Jewish story is not exceptional”. I said I’m not sure that’s the case and I explain why that might not be the case.

As for my insomnia, are you serious?

[Hot Pepsi]

Reed - you are possibly the only person I can think of who genuinely seems to have no malice for others (based upon reading your shit since the early 2000’s). So you get a pass

Thanks

I'm a nine on the Enneagram, which means I want everyone to get along. To a fault.

There's a lot about reform Judaism especially that I find very appealing, but I don't think it would be a good fit for me.

I once nearly bumped into Elie Wiesel as he was coming out of the men's room near the religion department at Boston U when I was studying there. He taught there, sometimes. He was pretty old then, so if I had actually bumped into him, I may have knocked him over and then my name would have been in the newspaper, to say the least.

[Posty Webber]

Is that on?
Going so far down a road in a debate before citing insomnia

I've taken a deep breath and am going to take the magnanimous approach in response. I can understand you taking everything I've said at face value as you don't know me or my sitch. And re-reading everything I've written I guess you wouldn't be out of line taking it all in, in an uncharitable way as I've not exactly been subtle with the language.

I'll try to be clearer now.

Firstly, I'm in Sydney and had not slept all night. I made my first post at 4am local time. Not a bad effort, I reckon.

I am so utterly broken and despondent with anti semitism that I'm quite reluctant to listen to reason from non-Jews who like to tell me what's going on. It's pretty simple in my eyes: the world hates us and it always has. And unlike other examples of the also-oppressed (as outlined by Nef earlier on) the hatred comes from all corners, all classes, all ethnicities, consistently throughout time, and for a range of bizarre reasons. Let's list a few: Killed god. Caused the plague. Murderers of Christian children. Creators of Communism. Global Financial Markets controllers. Warmongers. Deep-state operatives. Internationalists. Globalists. Money-lenders. Thieves. Disloyal. Lizard shape-shifters. PotEoZ and the rest. 9-11. Racists.

Do a lucky dip: pick a country from pot A, then a religion from pot B and a social class from pot C and you can be fairly certain that any individual over the age of 16 in that demographic will know of – and likely believe (to an extent) – one or more horrible tropes about Jews.

Nef mentions Armenians and Congolese. What are the deep, globally understood tropes surrounding these groups? Have these groups been maligned and despised in countries all across the globe from Northern Europe to the Middle East to Malaysia to the USA?

^ All of the above is specifically in response to Nef's statement. He said, "the Jewish story is not exceptional. It is exceptional for the reasons I state above. Africans under white rule (including up until present day) compare similarly, imo.

But being exceptional does not make it more important, or worse, or more serious than any and all of the other, myriad of systemic examples of oppression and prejudice – whether that be the Nakba or genocidal atrocities committed against Armenians and Kurds, or the rape and pillage of India by the Brits. Slavery, the White Australia Policy, Roma under Hitler, Irish under British rule and more.

then throwing shade before ducking out altogether?

You probably didn't notice due to timings and all, but my comment was regarding Nef's original post. He subsequently edited it and added more context. I responded to this effort:

But that' s not true is it?

I mean just as Jews can't and shouldn't be expected to deal with the projections and anxieties other people have about them other people can't be expected to deal with the irrational projections and anxieties of Jews.

If I criticise Sheldon Adelson it's because he's a cunt, not because he's a Jew.

He went on to add some context whereby he gave an example of Pollard employing misdirection tactics and muddying waters due to his (Pollard's) own dumb paranoia. But even with that addition, the post is still so weird I honestly don't know how to unpack it.

I hoped someone else would have an opinion on why Nef's statement was troublesome/troubling, but at this stage to no avail. If I get the time later I'll have a go.

Anyway, as for Jewish people being singled out - based on subconscious sadness for Jesus or otherwise - racially motivated attacks and hate crimes have affected all groups.
In cases of attacks based on an individuals perceived religion, 3,530 were carried out on muslim peoples (47%), with 1,326 (18%) carried out against jewish peoples based on government statistics.

Apologies to everyone for doing the thing that we all agree shouldn't be done – that is to rank atrocities (and all that), and I realise this makes me look like a cunt but if FbwSS has put it out there I will respond in that context. Muslims account for 5% of the overall population in the UK, and Jews account for less than 0.5%. So Jews (per capita in the UK) overindex. I bet France and places like that would be heaps, heaps worse.

[Posty Webber]

Agreed.

Its a very difficult subject and respect to Posty for tackling in so openly in a public forum. He's also in a different timezone than we Europeans

Thanks man.

As I said earlier Posty I think the fact that written records about the Jewish experience go back so far is one reason why the story of the Jews seems of a different nature.I think its because the records date back to the Pharaohs, rather than that the story of oppression is in itself unique. We don't know the story of the Roma, say, in the same detail, but if you think about it the history of every human family goes back the same number of years.

Fair points and consider them taken. I do, however, think there's more to it.

I recently listened to Deborah Lipstadt talking about contemporary anti semitism, and despite her undoubtedly impressive bone fides I found her insights to be light-weight and boring.

One interesting thing she did mention was that (in her opinion) from a white/Christian perspective, it all began when Pontius Pilate claimed that the Jews made him kill yer man. The idea that these weird people had such power that they could tell the Roman Empire(!) what to do, was what started this idea that we control shit.

[Posty Webber]

Well hatred and fear of "the other" gets passed on from generation to generation (largely I'd suggest because people in power know that the best way to preserve or extend power is to turn the powerless against each other). This is true of all forms of racism. The church has/had a particular role in the promulgation of anti semitism so in that regard it may be deeper rooted

Yeah - totally. Thanks man.

Groupthink, and attitudes passing down, are of course at the route of much racism. Not sure what you mean by 'societal engineering' though. Am also not sure that Jesus was generally - even in the anglo-centric West - presented as blonde-haired, my memory was that it was/is generally dark hair.

Apologies for being too fast and free with my writing. "Blonde-haired Jesus" was shorthand for our God.

By 'societal engineering' I meant what ad hoc said above.

[Nefertiti2]

Yes in that context you’re right. As ad hoc has said the role of the Christian Churches in this cant be underestimated. They were actively scapegoating the Jews as Christkillers , churches in the Rhineland used to be decorated with a Judensau, and Martin Luther was an enormous antisemite. pogroms against the Jews were standard in raising funds for a crusade. And a different kind of antisemitism began as Jews began to enter civil society after the enlightenment quotas exclusions and conspiracy theories of various kinds.

but I would still say that history of attitudes towards the Roma is equally grim, and the difference is that they were never encouraged to enter civil society in the same way.

There is an excellent exhibition about the the Porajmos: the genocide of Roma and Sinti people carried out by the Nazis at The Wiener Library in London.

(It still acceptable for British politicians to make anti Roma remarks.as Home Secretary Priti Patel has just done)

[URL="https://twitter.com/wienerlibrary/status/1191765446355292162?s=21"]https://twitter.com/wiener library/status/1191765446355292162?s=21[/URL]

The other reason why antisemitism is international is that Jews were. But the conspiracy theories and hatred weren’t features of Islamic culture-antisemitism in those countries is entirely connected with Israel, which is another narrative, which I think we should not discuss here.

Was astonished though to discover how many Jews took refuge in Turkey when they fled Germany, an almost entirely unknown story in the U.K. at any rate.

Id say the things that the Jews are accused of are largely irrelevant, though. Lies from fantasists are lies, and there’s no engaging with them whether they are claiming Jews are responsible for killing Christ, 9/11 or the Bolshevik Revolution

[Satchmo Distel]

The late-Mark Marqusee's memoir is excellent on these issues:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/18...api_tpbk_p1_i0

[Nefertiti2]

Would like to read that, thanks. He’s a sad loss.The positive comments from the likes of the Jewish Chronicle show how much more entrenched the debate has become, and how far to the right the Paoer has moved since it was published.

[Nefertiti2]

Don’t want to interrupt what is a very important conversation but not sure where else to put this

[URL]https://twitter.com/jomecmikeb/status/1196422907163009024?s=21[/URL]

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/alexhern/status/1197538605620699137?s=21[/URL]

[Tactical Genius]

Apologies for being too fast and free with my writing. "Blonde-haired Jesus" was shorthand for our God.

Nah, your correct
Growing up, Jesus was always presented as white.

This is a good article and that picture of Jesus was very similar to what you would see if you would into most African/Carribbean households.
https://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/07/12...o-white-jesus/

This is despite him probably looking like a slightly darker version of Mo Salah.

[Tactical Genius]

I am so utterly broken and despondent with anti semitism that I'm quite reluctant to listen to reason from non-Jews who like to tell me what's going on. It's pretty simple in my eyes: the world hates us and it always has. And unlike other examples of the also-oppressed (as outlined by Nef earlier on) the hatred comes from all corners, all classes, all ethnicities, consistently throughout time, and for a range of bizarre reasons........

......Do a lucky dip: pick a country from pot A, then a religion from pot B and a social class from pot C and you can be fairly certain that any individual over the age of 16 in that demographic will know of – and likely believe (to an extent) – one or more horrible tropes about Jews..........

^ All of the above is specifically in response to Nef's statement. He said, "the Jewish story is not exceptional. It is exceptional for the reasons I state above. Africans under white rule (including up until present day) compare similarly, imo.

This post I had serious issues with, especially the quoted bits above.
Speaking from an African perspective, we don't hate Jews and never have.

We have had the longest contiguous Hebrew population in the world (In Ethiopia) and Jewish people have always been (in General) treated well in Islamic north Africa as will as the very small populations in sub Saharan Africa.

In more modern times, what could be perceived as Antisemitism in sub-Saharan Africa is actually criticism of Israel (unfortunately, the word Jew and Israeli is generally interchangeable in these areas) and Israel's behaviour in post-colonial Africa is sketchy to say the least.

Finally, Antisemitism from Black people in the west (specifically in the UK and US). Again, this has started (from the Black perspective) as specific criticisms of their treatment as a result of their close relationship with one another with especially with regards to business and housing and the perceived exploitation involved.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated as I would be interested on how this is seen from a Jewish perspective?

[Nefertiti2]

That’s a very helpful contribution TG. And certainly fits in with the history that I’ve heard, that the Christian tradition of hostility to Jews isn’t repeated across Africa or Asia. It’s ironic how often people invoke the Judaeo- Christian tradition when for most of the last millennium that involved Christians killing Jews

[ChrisJ]

Jesus was always white when I was a kid. Maybe enough colour to show that people in those days spent a lot of time outdoors and Jesus was as rugged as they come.

TG, I know you're an admirer of Malcolm X. Is this quote genuine?

“But let’s not forget the Jew. Anybody that gives even a just criticism of the Jew is instantly labeled anti-Semite. The Jew cries louder than anybody else if anybody criticizes him. You can tell the truth about any minority in America, but make a true observation about the Jew, and if it doesn’t 't pat him on the back, then he uses his grip on the news media to label you anti-Semite.”

― Malcolm X

[Lang Spoon]

The position of Jews (and Christians) in North Africa/Spain under Arab and Berber dynasties prior to 1492 fluctuated greatly according to the ideology of the folk in charge. Tolerance was not always a given by any means.

[MsD]

I am so utterly broken and despondent with anti semitism that I'm quite reluctant to listen to reason from non-Jews who like to tell me what's going on. It's pretty simple in my eyes: the world hates us and it always has. And unlike other examples of the also-oppressed (as outlined by Nef earlier on) the hatred comes from all corners, all classes, all ethnicities, consistently throughout time, and for a range of bizarre reasons. Let's list a few: Killed god. Caused the plague. Murderers of Christian children. Creators of Communism. Global Financial Markets controllers. Warmongers. Deep-state operatives. Internationalists. Globalists. Money-lenders. Thieves. Disloyal. Lizard shape-shifters. PotEoZ and the rest. 9-11. Racists.

Do a lucky dip: pick a country from pot A, then a religion from pot B and a social class from pot C and you can be fairly certain that any individual over the age of 16 in that demographic will know of – and likely believe (to an extent) – one or more horrible tropes about Jews.

If it's any consolation, probably not, but if you can take it as an expression of empathy and sorrow, I've been heartsick and troubled for days and have shed tears thinking a) that some Jews think we in the Labour Party hate them, and some of these will be elderly survivors or other vulnerable people who will be terrified and b) how deeply, deeply unjust this is, how horrible that people are using it against us when they know it's not true and (last but not least) c) that a lot of poor and vulnerable people who need a Labour government are going to be cheated out of it by some people exploiting the vulnerable feelings and fears of Jews, firstly, and the soft nature and self-criticism of many socialists that means we're not able to fight this with the indignation and righteous anger that we should.

As a Labour Party member I'm being called antisemitic when I am nothing of the kind, my Jewish Labour Party member friends are being called it, and if we lose the election because of it Corbyn will get the blame although he is blameless in this. They did the same thing with Miliband (the Jewish Chronicle and other rightwing Jews), but here they've found a way to attack a lot of the members as well as the leadership.

I'm not being called a shapeshifting lizard, but I'm being accused of approving of spitting on Jews. Even though the person talking about his Jewish friends being spat on WAS MAKING IT UP AND HAS NO JEWISH FRIENDS.
Meanwhile, I sit next to any Haredi on the bus who are getting the piss taken out of them (it's rare, but it happens) or are being moaned at for having so many children, I've helped Haredi disabled children get on and off horses down the stables (I used to volunteer down there), I know loads of non-Orthodox Jews, I've studied under Jewish professors and have a bookshelf groaning with Jewish authors (and boy, are they groaning lately). But somehow I'm an antisemite.

Also, if it makes you feel better, the first words that spring to mind when you say "Jewish" to me are still "Barbra Streisand" and "bagel". I hope that's not a trope, and I'm not being sarky.

[Nefertiti2]

an important thread here

https://twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1199131501948002309?s=20

[Tactical Genius]

Jesus was always white when I was a kid. Maybe enough colour to show that people in those days spent a lot of time outdoors and Jesus was as rugged as they come.

TG, I know you're an admirer of Malcolm X. Is this quote genuine?

“But let’s not forget the Jew. Anybody that gives even a just criticism of the Jew is instantly labeled anti-Semite. The Jew cries louder than anybody else if anybody criticizes him. You can tell the truth about any minority in America, but make a true observation about the Jew, and if it doesn’t 't pat him on the back, then he uses his grip on the news media to label you anti-Semite.”

― Malcolm X

Never seen that quote before, I would not be surprised if it was true although it sounds more Farrakhan than Malcolm X. Malcolm X was too busy calling out all of White society and wasn't particularly bothered with subdividing them.

I knew the Nation of Islam would be brought up sooner or later (I was expecting Farrakhan rather than Malcolm X) So I should address it.
I should point out that I although I am an admirer of Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammed, Khalid Muhammed and Farrakhan (in that order). I am not and never been a member of the Nation of Islam so my knowledge of them and their doctrine is incomplete.

The doctrine Nation of Islam was formed in the 1930's and 40's when a large number of black people moved from the South escaping persecution to move into the northern industrial cities.
The places they moved into tended to be former Jewish (as well as Italian and Irish neighbourhoods).
As one would expect, there was a lot of ethnic tension as many of the black people felt they were being exploited by Jewish Landlords and shopkeepers.
I should point out that the anti-Semitic quotes that you may find by the likes of the NOI, Marcus Garvey, James Baldwin and MLK (yes, him too) were also made against the Italians, Irish and regular White people.
For you film Buffs, re-watch the Film Do the right thing, or the current TV show Godfather of Harlem.

I should also state that at this time, there was alot of black/Jewish co-operation.
Black organisations were actively campaigning for Israel to be set aside as the Jewish homeland, black soldiers helped liberate Jews from Nazi Concentration/Labour camps (despite some in the US armed forces trying to re-write history), Jewish people provided alot of logistical, financial and legal assistance to black people during the civil rights struggle. I suspect, this is where the conspiracy theory popular amongst white nationalists that Jews use black people as a proxy to destabilise white society to a state whereby they can then take over at the top of the racial pyramid. Hence the chant, "You will not replace us" at the unite the right rally.