Originally posted by Nefertiti2
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Antisemitism and contemporary politics
Collapse
X
-
- Mar 2008
- 20816
- Black Country Green Belt
- Crusaders FC, Norn Iron, not forgetting Serendib
- Blueberry vodka Jaffa cake on marzipan base
Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View PostRR is Jewish, isn't she? Don't know what her surname has to do with it
Ideally people should Yiddishify their names before commenting. So I'm Velvel To'am (thanks Wiki)
Meanwhile, Dudley Council on "Israel as racist endeavor"
Comment
-
She accused me of 'bully a campaigner against anti-Semitism' this morning, which is a bit rich. Given that the campaigner in question was Zoe Kemp, who as well as 'jokingly' repeating called for crowdfunding to assassinate Corbyn, has openly referred to wanting to kill him herself, has had to be removed from premises for screaming abuse at him, and who produced charming Fuck Corbyn mugs for Christmas.
Comment
-
There seems to be a semi-cyclical thing where a prominent jewish person makes a clumsy intervention then gets swarmed with replies - some of which are telling them they're wrong, lying, mistaken a tory etc and some of which are grossly antisemitic and clearly - to the person making the intervention - justify it.
Neither side is exactly covering themselves in glory or indeed working towards any position of understanding engagement with one another.
The labour antisemitism stuff is, at its core motivated by Corbyn's history of Palestinian solidarity, but, equally, some of the stuff churned up from Corbyn's past and certain figures on the left has been pretty fucking dodgy and needed a better response. It's true that there's a double standard but i don't care. The left should hold itself to a better standard of anti-racism than the right and it should embrace that.
Both the weaponisation of antisemitism by the right and the semi-deifiication of Corbyn by some labour supporters has prevented any meaningful challenge to that - and indeed any challenge to the antisemitic tendencies on the left that Corbyn has frequently indulged. And there's a lot of left-leaning Jewish people who are never going to supporting labour under Corbyn because of this. And loads of Jewish people within the labour movement get called collaborators by "philosemites" and right-wingers who are, at the same time, all too willing to indulge racism when it's directed at others.
This is indicative of that - I don't know why anyone is particularly interested in what the person who does maths on Countdown has to say about Corbyn but somehow a shouting-match dominates left discourse. And like there's clearly a class of people in Labour for whom drawing the online opprobrium of "centrists" is their main/only pretension to radicalism. Even when they're wrong, even when they're implicitly encouraging anti-semites.
Comment
-
- Jan 2012
- 3297
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
You make some good points, but
Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
This is indicative of that - I don't know why anyone is particularly interested in what the person who does maths on Countdown has to say about Corbyn but somehow a shouting-match dominates left discourse. And like there's clearly a class of people in Labour for whom drawing the online opprobrium of "centrists" is their main/only pretension to radicalism. Even when they're wrong, even when they're implicitly encouraging anti-semites.
- Likes 1
Comment
-
- Jan 2012
- 3297
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
Another cosy chat this morning, this time with Lorraine Kelly on ITV - apparently Rachel is discussing how she has stood up to the anti-semitic abuse from the left. I doubt if Lorraine will be asking Rachel if her previous conflation of 'Israel' with 'Jewish' is in breach of the IHRA definition or not - nor what 'looking Jewish' is like - so it's probably up to a few people to disagree with her on social media again. It's the only outlet there is.
- Likes 1
Comment
-
With the caveat that I haven't properly dug into Riley's views, but from a quick twitter search she has only ever mentioned Israel in the context of complaining about people sending her unsolicited stuff about Israel. Most of her references to Zionism are pushing a more nuanced understanding of the term than "uncritically support the displacement of Palestinians".
The impression I get from my brief skim is that, far from being a right-wing anti-Corbyn die-hard, she's a sort of liberal zionist who, in general, is not that interested in Israel but defaults to supporting its right to exist as a jewish state. I know a few Jewish people who hold similar views, and, I know my non-zionist Jewish pals get increasingly frustrated with liberal zionism, but also it's incredibly weird to see someone whose politics on Israel broadly reflect the current political stance of the Labour Front bench (two-state solution, opposed to the current government) be transformed into this right-wing bogey-figure idk.Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 10-01-2019, 12:04.
Comment
-
- Jan 2012
- 3297
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View PostWith the caveat that I haven't properly dug into Riley's views, but from a quick twitter search she has only ever mentioned Israel in the context of complaining about people sending her unsolicited stuff about Israel. Most of her references to Zionism are pushing a more nuanced understanding of the term than "uncritically support the displacement of Palestinians".
The impression I get from my brief skim is that, far from being a right-wing anti-Corbyn die-hard, she's a sort of liberal zionist who, in general, is not that interested in Israel but defaults to supporting its right to exist as a jewish state. I know a few Jewish people who hold similar views, and, I know my non-zionist Jewish pals get increasingly frustrated with liberal zionism, but also it's incredibly weird to see someone whose politics on Israel broadly reflect the current political stance of the Labour Front bench (two-state solution, opposed to the current government) be transformed into this right-wing bogey-figure idk.
Comment
-
So where are we after three weeks of heated debate?
As I posted earlier, there are legitimate(-ish) reasons to call-out both Corbyn and Chomsky on enabling antisemitism, but more importantly, how does this stuff actually impact a) Jewish people - both those who support and those criticial of corbyn b) Palestinians and c) the electoral chances of the labour party?
I don't think a thousand people telling Rachel Riley her politics are bad really helps any of those - it simply entrenches an incredibly toxic debate that, it seems fairly clear to me, enables antisemites (and misogynists) on the left to abuse people.
I'm not necessarily saying people need to rise above disingenuous criticism (particularly some of the more slanderous allegations against left-wing jews), but I think it's probably worth some Labour supporters that there are quite a lot of Jewish people they'd have a lot in common politically with who would never vote for corbyn, maybe acknowledging that, and working from there.
Comment
-
Hang on, what are we talking about now? Are we talking about the issue of antisemitism in the UK, or the occupation. Your post isn't clear. I've been spending a long time trying very hard not to conflate the two, and I think it is important not to. Both are very important issues, but when it comes down to it, the occupation is the one of those issues that is killing and brutalising people, under which people are being killed purely because of their race, on a daily basis. This is not to diminish the problem of antisemitism on the left in UK politics, nor to try and downplay the effect on those affected by it, but of the two separate issues the occupation is certainly the more serious. It is racially motivated mass murder.
- Likes 1
Comment
-
I don't know whether it has an effect on c), but vociferously attacking someone like RR is a bad look for Corbyn supporters.
As Emily T seems to have worked out: https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/...51725610856450Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 10-01-2019, 13:39.
Comment
-
Originally posted by ad hoc View PostHang on, what are we talking about now? Are we talking about the issue of antisemitism in the UK, or the occupation. Your post isn't clear. I've been spending a long time trying very hard not to conflate the two, and I think it is important not to. Both are very important issues, but when it comes down to it, the occupation is the one of those issues that is killing and brutalising people, under which people are being killed purely because of their race, on a daily basis. This is not to diminish the problem of antisemitism on the left in UK politics, nor to try and downplay the effect on those affected by it, but of the two separate issues the occupation is certainly the more serious. It is racially motivated mass murder.
Comment
-
Originally posted by ad hoc View PostIt was the juxtaposition of point (b) in your list of people impacted. I couldn't really work out what we were now talking about, and, indeed, whether we talking about both issues.
The only reason to shout about Israel at Rachel Riley is to position her criticism being because she is a zionist or whatever, something that has far more to do with trying to pigeonhole every critic of Corbyn as anti-Palestinian - and hence illegitimate - than it does about any sort of meaningful support for Palestine. Does this make sense?
Comment
-
I only know what has been on this thread (and the interview on C4), and the only person i have heard mention Israel is her, and when Krishnan Guru-Murthy actually asked her a question about Israel (after she brought it up), she basically said something pathetic like "I don't want people on any side to be killed". I don;t know - if people have been shouting at her about Israel then I agree with you, but as I say, from where I watch, she brought Israel into the conversation. (and if she did she needs to have a slightly more thought out position on it than what she seems to have)
- Likes 1
Comment
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/libcomorg/status/1082620167732019200.This thread seems pretty measured on Riley and Chomsky.
Last edited by Lang Spoon; 10-01-2019, 15:48.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View PostYou seem to show a remarkable generosity to Rachel Riley here that was missing from say your criticisms of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The reason I tend to be more critical of AOC is because she holds elected office and is perceived by many to be a radical leftist. Acknowledging the gaps between the rhetoric she used to get elected and the structural realities of what can be done under the current US political system is important, or at least it is important when loads of people are really invested in pretending those structural realities don't exist every two years.
I don't think these are particularly inconsistent or bad faith positions to hold.Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 10-01-2019, 16:24.
Comment
-
Rachel Riley works with some very unpleasant people who are both right wing . anti Corbyn and Pro israel zealots. In particucalr the tweeters known as GnasherJew and Mishtal are rightwing and pro likud.
She has 612000 followers
https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1083418004422098945
- Likes 1
Comment
Comment