The White Supremacy thread

[Satchmo Distel]

re. Malcolm X versus James Baldwin. I think Baldwin's arguments stand up better than Malcolm's in a similar way to how the Du Bois position of 1910-1930 stands up better than Marcus Garvey; which is not to say that Garvey and Malcolm were totally wrong, but simply that their solutions were unworkable.

[Tactical Genius]

If you are on the receiving end of projections about you that diminish your identity and at the very least are silent in the face of violence and at the worst actively participate in it then maybe it’s easier to call it psychosis than something conscious, both for your own sanity and in order not to be entirely negative about humanity.

I agree, a very good point.

I’ve seen something similar in researching the way that whatever Jews did in 1930’s Germany confirmed the prejudices and hate of the perpetrators and justified their actions to themselves.

Yes, there is a myth that the Nazi's made German's anti-semetic. They just tapped into a mindset that must have been widespread and pretty entrenched.

Its important to remember that white supremacy has nothing to do with black people. And normalisation of that kind of implicit hatred and violence based on untruths and fantasies is close to psychosis, even if it’s one that’s very widely held.

Again, very good points here. A point of frustration for me though is the focus of the extremist and violent end of White Supremacist which probably counts for about 0.01% of it.
The more dangerous part of it is the way the mindset pervades all aspect of society and all aspects of human interaction effecting White and non-white people. A good example is the picture Balderdasha linked to. I would assume most people white or non-white would not have noticed the implication. And even those who found it troubling would not know it is scientifically incorrect.

So I looked back into the Guardian archives and saw this (because i like to check paperwork).
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...ionary-journey
This shows the Guardian are able to produce race neutral (or more neutral) illustrations when the mood takes them.

So why is this important you ask, well this re-enforces the colourism throughout the world (a product of white Supremacy). This is why you see alot of skin (and hair) bleaching throughout the African diaspora as well as in Asia (where it appears to be worse). The rest of the world has been convinced that Melanin is bad the and the less Melanin you have, the more civilised you are, and as this is baked into society and has been spread throughout the world through European colonialism people are treated better, even within the various non-white societies.

[Tactical Genius]

re. Malcolm X versus James Baldwin. I think Baldwin's arguments stand up better than Malcolm's in a similar way to how the Du Bois position of 1910-1930 stands up better than Marcus Garvey; which is not to say that Garvey and Malcolm were totally wrong, but simply that their solutions were unworkable.

You raise some good point there which are worthy of discussion.

A few points:

The discussion was in 1961 when Malcolm X was parrotting the opinions of Elijah Muhammed. The stated position of the NOI at the time was to physically separate from and have their own Nation within the USA with their own land, like the native Americans. As we can see with the Native Americans, that would never be feasible practically as the Whites would come in and smash it up if it looked like it was going to be a success (as they have done on many occasions in black communities since the abolition of slavery). By the end of his life, he came to realise this wasn't feasible.

Apart from highlighting and complaining about racism, Baldwin does not have concrete proposals apart from shaming white people into making changes. Also I did not see much disagreement in that clip, actually, i heard alot of Baldwin chiming in to defend Malcolm X when the interviewer kept interrupting him so having them as opponents is somewhat misleading as they were complimentary about each other.

Regarding W.E.B Dubios and Marcus Garvey, looking at the position of black people today, you can easily say they both failed.
I would lean more on the Garvey side as he was more into (and attempted) more practical solutions rather than writing books and making snappy quotes.

So in finishing, I agree the Solutions put forward by Garvey and the NOI were unworkable. The NOI were influenced by Garvey and many of their founder members were Garveyites (as was Malcolm X parents). Not because they were inherently flawed. But the system of White Supremacy would simply not alow it to flourish.

Also what Dubois et al talked about was alot of elitist stuff that leaves me a bit cold, I don't subscribe to all that boulee talented ten stuff. Has some house Naker overtones. But i give him alof of respect as he was the inspiration many in the post WWII African independence movement

[ooh aah]

So why is this important you ask, well this re-enforces the colourism throughout the world (a product of white Supremacy). This is why you see alot of skin (and hair) bleaching throughout the African diaspora as well as in Asia (where it appears to be worse). The rest of the world has been convinced that Melanin is bad the and the less Melanin you have, the more civilised you are, and as this is baked into society and has been spread throughout the world through European colonialism people are treated better, even within the various non-white societies.

I think there's a slight misconception regarding the reason behind the prevalence of whitening products in Asia. In pre globalised societies, especially in China, Japan and Korea, having tanned skin was seen as evidence that you were a peasant, as you worked outdoors. So the elites of those countries were using white make up before cultural contact with Europeans. This is an attitude which has never really gone away.

More recently Korean fashion, especially in cosmetics, has proliferated throughout South East Asia. It's a bit of a generalisation, but girls/young women from the Philippines to Malaysia aren't buying whitening products to look European, they're buying them to look more Korean.

[Tactical Genius]

I think there's a slight misconception regarding the reason behind the prevalence of whitening products in Asia. In pre globalised societies, especially in China, Japan and Korea, having tanned skin was seen as evidence that you were a peasant, as you worked outdoors. So the elites of those countries were using white make up before cultural contact with Europeans. This is an attitude which has never really gone away.

More recently Korean fashion, especially in cosmetics, has proliferated throughout South East Asia. It's a bit of a generalisation, but girls/young women from the Philippines to Malaysia aren't buying whitening products to look European, they're buying them to look more Korean.

I understand some of these attitudes predated European contact, but these were further entrenched during colonial times especially in South east Asia where most of the countries were colonised by Europeans and there was formal/Informal race classifications where those with varying amount of European blood would be able to rise higher in society.

Also, are you able to explain the large numbers of Asian women who have those eye operations to look more European?

[ooh aah]

Well I've lived here for 12 years, I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone in real life who has actually had the eye operation.

[ursus arctos]

Where is here?

South Korea has the highest rate of plastic surgery in the world.

https://www.vice.com/en_in/article/8...ite-of-passage

[Tactical Genius]

Where is here?

South Korea has the highest rate of plastic surgery in the world.

https://www.vice.com/en_in/article/8...ite-of-passage

That was always my opinion too.
I also came across this/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536060/
To be fair to Ooh ahh, my answer above is a bit short and brief, I will try and elabourate.
In the meantime, I would be interested in his opinions as I have never been to Korea or Japan and i go by what i am told by their diaspora.

[Patrick Thistle]

I think there's a slight misconception regarding the reason behind the prevalence of whitening products in Asia. In pre globalised societies, especially in China, Japan and Korea, having tanned skin was seen as evidence that you were a peasant, as you worked outdoors. So the elites of those countries were using white make up before cultural contact with Europeans. This is an attitude which has never really gone away.

Also a huge thing in England 200 years ago and also in America. A redneck is a poor white man who works in the sun (hence his sunburned neck).

[Tactical Genius]

Also a huge thing in England 200 years ago and also in America. A redneck is a poor white man who works in the sun (hence his sunburned neck).

200 years ago England was in the midst of slavery and colonialism.......

Was it also a thing in pre-colonial England. It was my understanding that darker skinned people were revered in Northern Europe as many held prestigious posts. Early blackface in Europe was actually meant to be complimentary than to mock.
Morris AKA Moorish dancers is a good example..

[Balderdasha]

The second year I was in Chongqing, I tutored the daughter of the head of the Chongqing police department (the headteacher sent me for dinner with him at zero notice, it was an offer I couldn't refuse). She was 15 and fascinatingly privileged and slightly vacuous. She would discuss things like the army trainee she was dating because she liked his six pack, the fact that she told her parents she was ill and couldn't go on holiday with them because she wanted to stay at home on her own for three days drinking coca-cola, eating pot noodles and playing her favourite computer games, she once broke her wrist because she didn't want to drop the ice cream cone she was carrying when she tripped (she loved ice cream), and she was studying to get a place in a South Korean sixth form school but was concerned that the police there were too strict and she might get arrested for chewing gum. Anyway, the relevance to this story was that her uncle had offered her eyelid and liposuction surgery for her 16th birthday. Quite a few of our lessons revolved around her internal debate of whether to accept or not.

Winnie (the name I knew her by, her self-chosen English name) also had access to a beautiful, empty apartment on the waterfront in the centre of Chongqing which she could use when it wasn't hosting visiting police delegations. We'd sometimes hang out there with her friends at the weekend and drink tea and play cards and Mahjong.

[Lang Spoon]

200 years ago England was in the midst of slavery and colonialism.......

Was it also a thing in pre-colonial England. It was my understanding that darker skinned people were revered in Northern Europe as many held prestigious posts. Early blackface in Europe was actually meant to be complimentary than to mock.
Morris AKA Moorish dancers is a good example..

Galen mentions women using make up to have their skin appear whiter in the 2nd/3rd century. Skin lighteners/whiteners existed through the mediavel period and beyond, the toxic lead and arsenic based stuff holding sway from the 16th to 18th centuries.

[Patrick Thistle]

There was also a "joke" from the Caliphate that revolved around a woman claiming to have lighter skin than she did. I remember that as a tangent in my Early Islam module.

[Tactical Genius]

Galen mentions women using make up to have their skin appear whiter in the 2nd/3rd century. Skin lighteners/whiteners existed through the mediavel period and beyond, the toxic lead and arsenic based stuff holding sway from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Yep, i am not disputing any of that. I always assumed this was a thing amongst the elites of society and not common amongst the working classes where all women were expected to work outside. For a start, working classes were too knackered and poor to have time for the makeup you mentioned.

[Patrick Thistle]

In Song of Songs chapter 1 the woman described herself as "dark yet lovely" and claims she is dark from working in the sun. As the King romances her he frequently calls her his "dove" and by chapter 7 her neck is described as "an ivory tower".

Song of Songs in its current form dates from sometime after the 5th century BCE, but may preserve content dating back to the 10th century BCE.

[Tactical Genius]

In Song of Songs chapter 1 the woman described herself as "dark yet lovely" and claims she is dark from working in the sun. As the King romances her he frequently calls her his "dove" and by chapter 7 her neck is described as "an ivory tower".

Song of Songs in its current form dates from sometime after the 5th century BCE, but may preserve content dating back to the 10th century BCE.

I assume you are talking of the Songs of Solomon from the bible where a peasant girl is marrying the King ?

[ooh aah]

Where is here?

South Korea has the highest rate of plastic surgery in the world.

https://www.vice.com/en_in/article/8...ite-of-passage

Here is China, Indonesia, Philippines and Malaysia. Never been to Korea, although I do have a lot of Korean students.

Korea is well known for plastic surgery, but it's not just the eye thing, also noses is a big thing apparently. I'd guess the vast majority of the eye surgery that TG talks about is in Korea. But to say it's a large number of women in Asia would lead to the wrong impression. It's the most densly populated area of the planet, the overall number of eye operations has to be a fraction of 1%.

[ooh aah]

That was always my opinion too.
I also came across this/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536060/
To be fair to Ooh ahh, my answer above is a bit short and brief, I will try and elabourate.
In the meantime, I would be interested in his opinions as I have never been to Korea or Japan and i go by what i am told by their diaspora.

Well to be fair back, my answers were also short and brief as I was replying on my phone.

I think there is a difference in how European colonisation affected Asian societies compared to the Americas or Africa. First contact between Europeans and Americans was, as we all know, disastrous for the American peoples and reinforced the belief among the Europeans of their own cultural superiority. This was also true with regard to Africans, with first slavery then colonisation. So that's about 500 years of racism, and that's inevitably going to have an impact on the people on the receiving end.

However things were a bit different in Asia. When the Europeans first rocked up in the far east (at around the same time they were colonising the Americas) they were met with people who were every bit as convinced of their own cultural superiority as the Europeans were, and had the same military tech that the Europeans had to back that belief up. So for the first 200 years or so of that relationship it was far from clear that the Europeans had any technological advantage at all. From India to China and to Japan, European traders and diplomats were left with no doubts whatsoever that they were considered barbarians. All of the arrogance, chauvinism, racism and belief in their own superiority which characterised European expansionism was just as prevalent in China, Japan, and to a lesser extent India. It was only really with the onset of the Industrial revolution that Europe finally got a technological advantage over Asia.

It only became apparent to the Chinese that actually they had fallen behind after the Opium Wars, in the mid 19thC. China was free from foreign intervention from 1949. That's a period of 100 years. For Japan that period is even shorter - they were defeating European powers in battle as early as 1905. In both cases the late 19thC is viewed by many as a period where corrupt and incompetent rulers and officials took their eye off the ball, and allowed the Europeans to take advantage. Without those corrupt rulers they never would have stood a chance. Now whether that is true or not, psychologically it surely has a very different impact on a peoples view of themselves than 500 years of slavery, colonisation and expoitation. That's why I think it's problematic to attribute the same cause to attitudes towards skin colour. This is not to say that European colonial powers were less racist in Asia, I just think they were less successful in embedding their attitude to skin colour into the mindset of the people they colonised there.

That's the impression I get anyway. I'm not a psychology graduate, so I'm not coming at this with any academic expertise.

[Patrick Thistle]

I assume you are talking of the Songs of Solomon from the bible where a peasant girl is marrying the King ?

Peasant girl / prostitute. Yeah, aka Song of Songs.

It's a bit of a mishmash really. At one point it's the king, at another it's just a boy she loves.

[Tactical Genius]

Good points Ooh aah,

I have not had enough time to address your points here and i am refraining from a quick post as it would take more than a few sentences to properly express my opinions.

Not sure i will be able to respond today as I am about to head to London to bear witness. If i don't respond in the next couple of days, feel free to bring this up as i am interested in your viewpoint from Asia.

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/rathfelder/status/1232024900384231424?s=21[/URL]

[Sporting]

Really not sure where to post this but here will suffice:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-hurt-response

(By the way, I have no real evidence for randomly slurring security staff but the anecdotal stories keep racking up. Apologies to any decent security people here or those of friends/families etc)

[Satchmo Distel]

This may or may not be a frame-up to ruin Gillum's career:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...arent-overdose

[Tactical Genius]

This may or may not be a frame-up to ruin Gillum's career:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...arent-overdose

No frame up. I had heard
stories of Gilliam's male friendships during the Governor's election. According to a source who went to University with him, she was surprised when he got married to a female as she knew his friends very well.
He went to great lengths to cover his tracks by getting an acquaintance to book the hotel room. If this is his level of judgement, then Trump is right and Florida dodged a bullet.

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/miqdaad/status/1239227581632860160?s=21[/URL]