You wrote that non-black feminism infiltrated the Panthers and destroyed it. I am pointing out that it had black feminists who strengthened it, and there is no evidence of white feminists destroying it.
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Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View PostYou wrote that non-black feminism infiltrated the Panthers and destroyed it. I am pointing out that it had black feminists who strengthened it, and there is no evidence of white feminists destroying it.
If you are attempting to make this arguments then you are missing key information about the civil rights struggle.
Have a read of this
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...mous-feminist/
The Angela Davis of 2020 talks about different topics than she does in 1970.
Angela Davis 1973
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MojD...ature=emb_logo
Last edited by Tactical Genius; 25-06-2020, 22:01.
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Originally posted by Tactical Genius View PostAre you implying people cared more about the death of George Floyd than Breonna Taylor because of gender. I just want to be 100% clear on that before I respond?
Who are these people and what is their evidence?
I can only speak for myself and i would not agree. Do you agree with them?
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The SayHerName report was headed by the academic who coined the concept 'intersectionality' so is particularly pertinent to this discussion. Black women are raped and murdered by police for a combination of White Supremacist and Male Supremacist reasons. Black men are not often raped by White Supremacist police AFAIK. Another good source on this
https://www.npr.org/books/titles/561...women-of-color
Male supremacy cannot be excluded from this discussion without demeaning the female black victims of White Supremacy policing.
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Originally posted by laverte View Post
Those were examples. i think the murder of George Floyd drew a reaction because it was "spectacular", and part of the reason for that was that it was filmed; and it could be filmed because it took place in public.
Breonna Taylor was murdered in her bed. Most women and girls who are killed by police die in their own homes, whereas the men i mentioned were all attacked in the street.
Sandra Bland
Botham Jean
Where you are killed by police is immaterial in the grand scheme. The important thing is the police killing black people for no reason. Let focus and discuss that, can we?
Christian Cooper, too, was threatened in a public place. If violence against Black women flies under the radar, it's probably because much of it takes place behind closed doors.
As for Christian Cooper, about 5 days afterwards I and Ursus posted on here an identical incident but this time a black woman being harassed by a white woman.
This is a structural inequality linked to the ways that men and women have unequal access to public space. So yes i would answer your question by saying that it is "because of gender", in an indirect way.
i was thinking of the SayHerName campaign and should have linked to it.
If you asked most people – even, i suspect, most Black Americans – fewer of them would have heard of Aiyana Stanley-Jones or Tanisha Anderson than of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. i certainly could not have named the former.
Now I have a question for you.
Do you consider yourself a feminist?
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Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View PostThe SayHerName report was headed by the academic who coined the concept 'intersectionality' so is particularly pertinent to this discussion. Black women are raped and murdered by police for a combination of White Supremacist and Male Supremacist reasons. Black men are not often raped by White Supremacist police AFAIK. Another good source on this
https://www.npr.org/books/titles/561...women-of-color
Male supremacy cannot be excluded from this discussion without demeaning the female black victims of White Supremacy policing.
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Originally posted by Tactical Genius View PostI am not going to get into a debate with you or anyone at this time as to who is being put upon more by White Supremacists.Lets stay on topic here.
The subject here is anti-black violence as a result of the system of white supremacy (hence the name of the thread). Engaging in whataboutery here is just muddying the waters.Where you are killed by police is immaterial in the grand scheme. The important thing is the police killing black people for no reason. Let focus and discuss that, can we?
Whose radar is this flying over, I would caution you you are on a 50 page thread where myself and a handful of other posters have chronicled White Supremacy and Anti-black violence. Just because you don't or didn't know, you should not assume I and others on here didn't.
Now I have a question for you.
Do you consider yourself a feminist?
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Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
So are you going to make the argument Daniel Holtzclaw (yes, i know their names without googling) is as much a male supremecists as white Supremacist. and whilst you are at it, you can explain to OTF why All of his 13 victims are black.
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Originally posted by laverte View Post
We are not going to be able to argue this productively. i want to expand the idea that "the system of white supremacy", and its violent deadly effects, go beyond the direct targeting of individual Black people by white supremacists. You keep telling me that is off-topic. We have reached a stalemate.
"The protests erupted after police murdered a Black man, George Floyd. They didn't erupt after police murdered a Black girl, Breonna Taylor. It seems to take the killing/beating of a Black cis man – Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Rodney King, etc – for the media to take note, even though it can be argued that Black women experience the highest rates of homicide of any racial group in the United States, and Black trans women even more so. The failure to protest the deaths of Black women is not necessarily on Black men, or Black people altogether. But some Black feminists would question your assertion that, in reality, no sections of Black society seem to be consistently less deserving, their deaths less worthy of protest, than others."
I take this as a very serious allegation and a massive insult to myself and the black community. When I pressed you on this, your response,
"Those were examples. i think the murder of George Floyd drew a reaction because it was "spectacular", and part of the reason for that was that it was filmed; and it could be filmed because it took place in public. Breonna Taylor was murdered in her bed. Most women and girls who are killed by police die in their own homes, whereas the men i mentioned were all attacked in the street. Christian Cooper, too, was threatened in a public place. If violence against Black women flies under the radar, it's probably because much of it takes place behind closed doors. This is a structural inequality linked to the ways that men and women have unequal access to public space. So yes i would answer your question by saying that it is "because of gender", in an indirect way."
So you are are attacking black society and accusing black society for caring more about the deaths of black men than black women.
Shame on you.
My original comment was about why certain examples of violent white supremacy might have led to widespread protest, and others not. It is commendable that you personally have not forgotten the names or the lifestories of the many, many victims, and that you give them all equal importance, but i never "assumed" the contrary, and in any case it's not the point i was making.
Again, shame on you.
i don't see the relevance of the question, and experience tells me it may not be in good faith. i am keen to be proved wrong.
Can you point to posts of yours in the past where you have gone hard and heavy in the defence of black women in the past who have been victims of White Supremacist violence? (preferbly before the 29th May 2020) Normally, I would check this myself, but I am having issues with the search function.
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Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Postlaverte didn't say black men ignored the killing of Breonna Taylor, or that blacks in general did.
what they said was "It seems to take the killing/beating of a Black cis man –... – for the media to take note,'
If you notice Nef, Laverte did go on to say this.
So yes i would answer your question by saying that it is "because of gender", in an indirect way.
I quoted her in Full, the entire paragraph so her comments can be seen in their rightful context.
I was going to retire to bed, but I am going to address both her posts in full. There is way too much stuff in there and I just can let those words stand uncontested.Last edited by Tactical Genius; 26-06-2020, 21:53.
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In the interest of fairness, I am going to rebut these accusations point by point so pull up a chair as there is history lesson about to take place and it will be a very long post.
Myth 1. The protests erupted after police murdered a Black man, George Floyd. They didn't erupt after police murdered a Black girl, Breonna Taylor.
Anyone who knows anything about Riots/Uprisings will tell you, they are usually years or decades in the making. The trigger is not usually the cause, but the straw that broke the camels back.
I have said many times on OTF in the last month, the protests from black people all over the west are not just about George Floyd, Speak to black people all over the US, UK, France and the Netherlands and they will tell you similar stories about anti-black police brutality, many of these incidents i have captured on this 50 page thread. In the US, there were three high profile incidents in quick succession.
1. Ahmaud Arbery, Killed in late February, after allegedly committing a burglary, only came to prominence two months later when the video of the murder surfaced which contradicted the accounts given by the murderers. If the murderers didn't film the event and share it around the community like some snuff video, we would have been none the wiser. As well as the killing, it highlighted how White Supremacists and the police and prosecutors collude to cover this stuff up.
2. Breonna Taylor was killed in mid March in a police raid. This story first came to my attention when he boyfriend (who was charged with attempted Murder of a policeman) was given bail by a black Judge Olu Stevens (a judge with an excellent track record of giving White Supremacy a short shrift in his courtroom). Again, this case only came to national (and international attention) two months later when news of the police lies and not following procedure came to light, such as:
Suspect for whom the warrant was served lived 10 miles away and was already in police custody
Suspicious no knock warrant
Police accounts conflicting wildly with witnesses
Police report missing vital information like her being riddled with bullets or the front door knocked of its hinges
Police officers not wearing body cams
3. George Floyd
The main difference between the first two and the third, is the murder of George Floyd was caught on camera, live from beginning to the end. People were already fuming from the first two events and this was the final straw, especially after the bullshit explanations from the Police and local prosecutors and Coroner.
Additionally, Minneapolis has a history of anti-black racism and police killing of black people in their recent history. The names Philando Castile and Jamar Clark spring to mind.
Myth 2. It seems to take the killing/beating of a Black cis man – Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Rodney King, etc
Firstly Trayvon Martin. At the time of his Murder he was a 17 year old child so for you to refer to him as a man is straight out of the Fox news playbook.
Michael Brown although technically a man was only 18. Are you aware of their ages or did you not give a shit?
Neely Fuller Jnr, Dr John Henrik Clark and Dr Frances Cress Welsing (female) teaches that in a system of white supremacy the black person is treated as a child intelectually well into old age but when it comes to administering punishment is treated as an adult from birth.
As well as the above two, Emmit Till and the Central Park 5 are other historic examples.
It can also be argued the main Catalyst of the 1992 Riots was not the perverse jury verdict of the Rodney King beating, but another incident involving a 15 year black girl shot dead by a Korean shop owner (google is your friend here).
Myth 3 But some Black feminists would question your assertion that, in reality, no sections of Black society seem to be consistently less deserving, their deaths less worthy of protest, than others.
They would say that to you, possibly because they would assume you would be more receptive to that line of nonsense and would not bother to fact check them. There is a cottage industry of black people making a decent living cooning and uncle Tom-ing by confirming whatever negative stereotypes white people have about black people and black society.
I will also slip in this pearler
and that more than three-quarters of Black people are killed by other Black people.
Myth 3. Erasing the distinctive experiences of women, and accusing them of fomenting discord, is exactly how male supremacy asserts itself.
My posting record on OTF is platinum plated when it comes to highlighting White Supremacist violence against black Women, this thread is testament to that. Where are your credentials?
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Originally posted by Bruno View PostIt would seem really hard to me to disentangle white supremacy from male supremacy. They're distinct, heavily overlapping dynamics.
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Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
So are you going to make the argument Daniel Holtzclaw (yes, i know their names without googling) is as much a male supremecists as white Supremacist. and whilst you are at it, you can explain to OTF why All of his 13 victims are black.
TG, I'm puzzled and a little frustrated. As grateful as I am (and I'm sure others are) for the chronicling, insight, historical education and perspective you freely provide, you can't half be an awkward sod at times. You threw in the charge that "the feminist and other non back organisations infiltrated the Civil rights and the Panther movement and destroyed it from within." but haven't substantiated that, as you'd expect anyone else to substantiate an assertion. You have insisted that acknowledgement of the additional burden of violence faced by black women, trans people, is somehow divisive and that anyway power relationships in black society are different from white society - but haven't substantiated either claim or addressed Laverte's data and illustrations of how they're pretty similar. Or responded to my question about whether you'd say homophobia, transphobia or misogyny aren't issues in black society.
Of course, some black feminists like Tamela Gordon talk of the failure of intersectional feminism but not in the terms you are. It's about the failure fo a middle class white leadership to address the issues of black women, but not an appropriation of their struggle. That white feminism has often failed black women is a compelling case but the problem has surely been its lack of engagement with the reality of black women's lives, rather than it undermining the struggle? I see indifference rather than sabotage. And I'm really struggling to see where the LGBTQ movement has undermined BLM.
Dare I ask your views on Kimberl? Williams Crenshaw (Diacritical marks!!!), or the AAPF?
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Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
What media. The black media was/is all over it. I have mentioned it here and have talked about it many times.
.
Apologies for my ignorance. I watch less and less media at all, but would probably only watch Black media if someone- most likely you- explicitly sent me a link,
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Tactical Genius:
i have read your posts thoroughly. i take your point about men/boys and thank you for flagging it up.
As a chronicle of white supremacist violence, i find this thread a valuable resource and i truly appreciate your commitment to it. i interjected only when, in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement, you took a swipe at feminists and LGBTQ people: those identities intersect with my own, and there are no Black women or Black LGBTQ people on this forum to argue for themselves. i try to read and listen to the arguments made in those circles, and i found your comments to be unrepresentative of what i pick up from them. The suggestion that women, gay and trans people are disruptive, if not some sort of fifth columnists within political movements has a long and ugly history, and i felt qualified to challenge your assertions on that subject.
i agree with your argument that the protests after the murder of George Floyd were the result of a series of criminal incidents by police against Black people, and of longstanding resentments against white supremacy. i hope it is of small consolation to the friends and loved ones of George Floyd that his death has provoked a wave of protest and the promise of something different, something better. The friends and loved ones of many other victims of police and white supremacist violence, whose deaths did not lead to such an immediate and widespread reaction, nor even a judicial conviction, may well be asking themselves why not. It is not that the killings were any less abhorrent. It is not, as you say, because the Black media or Black activists have ignored them. What's left as explanation is the circumstances and context of the killing, and the profile of the victim. It's my belief that gender can play a part (nowhere have i said an exclusive or even a predominant part) in each. i hope i have made myself clearer now on this issue.Last edited by laverte; 27-06-2020, 07:40.
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Originally posted by laverte View PostTactical Genius:
i have read your posts thoroughly. i take your point about men/boys and thank you for flagging it up.
As a chronicle of white supremacist violence, i find this thread a valuable resource and i truly appreciate your commitment to it. i interjected only when, in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement, you took a swipe at feminists and LGBTQ people: those identities intersect with my own, and there are no Black women or Black LGBTQ people on this forum to argue for themselves.
i try to read and listen to the arguments made in those circles, and i found your comments to be unrepresentative of what i pick up from them. The suggestion that women, gay and trans people are disruptive, if not some sort of fifth columnists within political movements has a long and ugly history, and i felt qualified to challenge your assertions on that subject.
A way to parlay benefits mainly to the white members of that community
A way to bash black society (especially black men) by taking cheap shots
Your initial post seemed to be of the latter.
I will admit I have not read many of your posts (we tend not to contribute to the same threads) But the little I had read have been very impressive.
This is why i assumed your comments were pulled out of an article you had probably read. With the sole aim of criticising and fragmenting the BLM movement (not the organisation) by trying to convince the Black female and LGBT members their experiences are being ignored or marginalised.
i agree with your argument that the protests after the murder of George Floyd were the result of a series of criminal incidents by police against Black people, and of longstanding resentments against white supremacy. i hope it is of small consolation to the friends and loved ones of George Floyd that his death has provoked a wave of protest and the promise of something different, something better.
The friends and loved ones of many other victims of police and white supremacist violence, whose deaths did not lead to such an immediate and widespread reaction, nor even a judicial conviction, may well be asking themselves why not. It is not that the killings were any less abhorrent. It is not, as you say, because the Black media or Black activists have ignored them. What's left as explanation is the circumstances and context of the killing, and the profile of the victim. It's my belief that gender can play a part (nowhere have i said an exclusive or even a predominant part) in each. i hope i have made myself clearer now on this issue.
The real reason is most of the deaths of black people at the hands of white supremacist police have no 3rd party evidence. So all we have is the word of the police officers who are backed up by coroners and prosecutors. The media don't care and white society in general don't give a shit.
White society cares more about a dog being mistreated than a black man. This is why Daniel Pantaleo walked free and Michael Vick went to jail.
I see you have a passion for Female rights, which I admire. I suggest you do what myself and Delicatemouth have done and create a thread to use as a repository for anti-female violence. I think it would be a great addition to OTF and I will do whatever I can to support it.
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Thank you for that post.
i have been re-reading our exchange in a genuine bid to understand the disconnect between what i wanted to say and what you took from my words. i take responsibility for this disconnect and can now see more clearly some of what i could and should (not) have said. i do not take pride in knowing that i have offended you.
We are not going to agree on the politics but i appreciate your expanding on your point of view regarding women's and LGBTQ groups and the BLM movement. i share your opinion that mainstream feminism, in particular, does not do enough to create a safe, supportive environment for Black women to speak out in.
We have made and qualified our respective points about the role of gender and i am happy to leave it there. i absolutely agree that:
most of the deaths of black people at the hands of white supremacist police have no 3rd party evidence. So all we have is the word of the police officers who are backed up by coroners and prosecutors. The media don't care and white society in general don't give a shit.
i appreciate your final paragraph, and if i return to this thread i will endeavour to make my next post more supportive of the work you are doing here.
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Originally posted by ChrisJ View Post
Speaking for myself, I'd say that I can't conceive how a serial rapist can be seen as anything other than a male supremacist, as much as that's not usually the term one would use. The reason all his victims are black might be explained by his being also racist. If he were just a racist he might not have raped 13 women. If he were just a rapist, he might have chosen more varied targets. but given that rape is so bound up with the exercise of power and dominance, it's hard to separate, wouldn't you say?
TG, I'm puzzled and a little frustrated. As grateful as I am (and I'm sure others are) for the chronicling, insight, historical education and perspective you freely provide, you can't half be an awkward sod at times.
You threw in the charge that "the feminist and other non black organisations infiltrated the Civil rights and the Panther movement and destroyed it from within." but haven't substantiated that, as you'd expect anyone else to substantiate an assertion.
Gloria Steinham was a CIA operative and she was instrumental in enticing many black women away from the civil rights movement and into the feminist movement in the 60's and 70's.
With a lot of the key females gone, the movement lost balance and fell apart.
Richard Masato Aoki.
Google Cointelpro, the death of Fred Hampton and the life and career of J Edgar Hoover.
You have insisted that acknowledgement of the additional burden of violence faced by black women, trans people, is somehow divisive
and that anyway power relationships in black society are different from white society - but haven't substantiated either claim or addressed Laverte's data and illustrations of how they're pretty similar.
White people are very quick to tell you how white they are going generations (there is a geneology thread on OTF after all).
Whereas with black people, there is always a determination to identify as something else, whether it is a tenuous link to another race, gender affiliation or sexual practice or religion.
See below for a good example (forward to 7:45)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5BQS79H7g
I am very wary about using statistics (they can be bent to mean anything you want them to mean) But if you compare, employment rates, academic achievements, school dropouts, average salary between black men and women you will see they are at different ratios as they are in white society.
Or responded to my question about whether you'd say homophobia, transphobia or misogyny aren't issues in black society.
All these restricted laws and policies are written and enforced by white people.
I just took a trip over to the trans thread and looked at the last three pages.
Most if not all All these anti-LGBT politicians and journalists Delicatemouth regularly complains about are overwhelmingly white. So i would advise you to fix your own house before coming to project onto black society.
Also LGBT people can be racist and violent towards black people too.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-word-her.html
Of course, some black feminists like Tamela Gordon talk of the failure of intersectional feminism but not in the terms you are.
It's about the failure for a middle class white leadership to address the issues of black women,
I have posted numerous videos on this thread of black women being physically attacked and battered by non-black people and the feminists have been conspicuous by their silence. I am of the opinion if they showed black men doing the battering, many would have had something to say and no doubt given as prime examples of the misogynistic violence in the black community and black male toxic masculinity.
but not an appropriation of their struggle. That white feminism has often failed black women is a compelling case but the problem has surely been its lack of engagement with the reality of black women's lives, rather than it undermining the struggle? I see indifference rather than sabotage.
And I'm really struggling to see where the LGBTQ movement has undermined BLM.
#alllivesmatter
https://twitter.com/AManCalledSrao/status/1274071197785956356?s=20
https://twitter.com/Chadwick_Moore/status/1274261864365658112?s=20
The worse was this.
https://www.businessinsider.in/inter...w/76470965.cms
A black Trangender woman shot dead by a hispanic person. the article has a stock picture of a black man in handcuffs with no picture of the murderer.
Dare I ask your views on Kimberl? Williams Crenshaw (Diacritical marks!!!), or the AAPF?
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