The White Supremacy thread

[Sporting]

My guesswork, my assumptions.

[slackster]

The US BLM website has a list of “sensible” goals.

The BLMUK gofundme page sounds like a Trot Sect Front list of demands, including dismantling capitalism no less, that’s had the likes of the Daily Mail frothing a bit. Raised over a million quid, mind.

[ChrisJ]

It was easy to miss as the mainstream media as well as the BLM movement have done a good job of pivoting away to talk about other things.

So could you expand on where the BLM movement is going wrong and why?

[Bruno]

That’s unclear. He may have been referring ti
slavery metaphorically. But FSK did work in behalf of slavers. That’s certain.

The verse goes

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave
And the start-spangled banner in triumph doth wave o’er the land of the free
And the home of the brave

The British were recruiting American slaves to fight on their side in the War of 1812, and this verse would appear to allude to that. At any rate it reflects Key's pro-slavery outlook.

A lot of these issues could be cleared up if we changed the anthem to “America the Beautiful.” Or get rid of it in sports, as Bruce Arena suggests.

This has been a suggestion since I was a kid. I don't see it ever happening, but you never know.

That would be great. If nothing else, the discussion would force Republicans to say out loud that they don’t actually believe this land was made for everyone. They also hate Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger for being “communists.”

I might tweak the lyrics. As I recall, it says from the Redwood forests to the gulf stream waters. (Two things in danger of disappearing) Can’t we come up with something better than the gulf stream? That’s like 50 miles off the coast. Not really a landmark that many people are sentimental about.

I don’t see this happening in my life time. We might end up getting stuck with God Bless America as some kind of “compromise.” FFS

God Bless America sounds like is demanding something from the almighty. America the Beautiful has God in it, but it asks him to shed his grace on us. Grace is, of course, unearned. We certainly haven’t earned it.

If you weren't aware, Guthrie wrote "This Land" in direct response to Berlin's "God Bless America." Its original refrain was "God blessed America for me." Guthrie's song had a curious evolution as its more socialist/communist sentiments were expurgated, e.g.

Was a big high wall that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn’t say nothing—
God blessed America for me.

One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the relief office I saw my people—
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
God blessed America for me.

[Sporting]

I've been looking:

"A coalition built on the Black Lives Matter movement has issued its first political agenda demanding reforms in the American justice system and reparations for slavery. Some 60 organisations in the Movement for Black Lives endorsed the platform calling for "black liberation" that had been forged over a year of discussions.

The agenda included six demands and 40 policy recommendations, including a reduction in military spending and a focus on protecting safe drinking water.

It also called for an end to the death penalty, decriminalisation of drug-related offences and prostitution, and the "demilitarisation" of police departments. It seeks reparations for lasting harms caused to African-Americans by slavery and investment in education, jobs and mental health programmes."

https://populardemocracy.org/news-an...anding-slavery

The mention of reparations would be good news, TG?

What I don't know is how much crossover there is between BLM and the Movement for Black Lives.

Are there some questions about BLM being taken over by do-good white liberals?

[Tactical Genius]

The US BLM website has a list of “sensible” goals.

The BLMUK gofundme page sounds like a Trot Sect Front list of demands, including dismantling capitalism no less, that’s had the likes of the Daily Mail frothing a bit. Raised over a million quid, mind.

The money raised is important, It would be interesting to see where it is spent............

[Tactical Genius]

So could you expand on where the BLM movement is going wrong and why?

It seems to be the modern version of the NAACP, an organisation that was flawed from it's inception due to the large participation at the leadership level of non-black people. During the Civil Rights era, they had White Supremacy on the ropes and they went down to Washington to negotiate desegregation and the end of Anti-Black violence. Somehow the movement was infiltrated and when they got there, they started talking about integration which amounted to interracial sexual access and eating at white lunch counters.
I am sure it isn't lost to everyone how how determined the BLM are to shift the conversation away from Anti-Black violence to matters of sex.

Malcolm X talked about this and this is why he stipulated his newly formed OAAU organisation would be black only.

[ChrisJ]

Tactical Genius Interesting, thanks. I know very little about the leadership of the BLM so I can't comment, but you usually know your stuff. I'll read further.

Gotta say this bit -

I am sure it isn't lost to everyone how how determined the BLM are to shift the conversation away from Anti-Black violence to matters of sex.

was a bit of a surprise to me and a couple of other people I've run it past as none of us had heard anything about sex from BLM.

[Tactical Genius]

Tactical Genius

Gotta say this bit - was a bit of a surprise to me and a couple of other people I've run it past as none of us had heard anything about sex from BLM.

Ok, let me clarify.

The organisation is supposed to be Black lives matter, yet we are seeing people from that organisation falling over themselves to tell us about their gender and who they choose to share their bed with. They are introducing other groups into the movement who have in the past shown hostility towards black people.

That's like me prefacing every post on White Supremacy by affirming I am a heterosexual black male.

[Tactical Genius]

On a related note, I have spoken at length regarding charitable organisations set up and soliciting donations to help black people only to pivot the money away to others.

Another example the Minnesota freedom Fund who have aparently raised 35 million to bail out protestors.

https://twitter.com/MNFreedomFund/status/1272901621945638917?s=20

[ChrisJ]

Thanks again.

I was misdirected by the preceding para so I read “sex” as relating to sexual access. So to be clear, it’s the intersectional aspect you’re unhappy with? I have been aware of this but again, hadn’t registered it as being a prominent element either at local protests I’ve attended or in the media.

Which formerly hostile groups have been introduced? Are you referring to black people’s experience in white-led feminist or LGTBQ organisations?

[Hot Pepsi]

The verse goes

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave
And the start-spangled banner in triumph doth wave o’er the land of the free
And the home of the brave

The British were recruiting American slaves to fight on their side in the War of 1812, and this verse would appear to allude to that. At any rate it reflects Key's pro-slavery outlook.



This has been a suggestion since I was a kid. I don't see it ever happening, but you never know.



If you weren't aware, Guthrie wrote "This Land" in direct response to Berlin's "God Bless America." Its original refrain was "God blessed America for me." Guthrie's song had a curious evolution as its more socialist/communist sentiments were expurgated, e.g.

Was a big high wall that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn’t say nothing—
God blessed America for me.

One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the relief office I saw my people—
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
God blessed America for me.

I think I’m thinking of a different verse.

Either way. It’s time for it to go. But it needs to be replaced with something else.

Unfortunately, it’s become ingrained in sports tradition. Note that Ken Burns used bits of the SSB as background music in some of the early episodes of his seminal Baseball documentary. It felt appropriate. We don’t sing it outside of sports and nobody knows the other verses. Until 9/11, I think most people associated it more with baseball than with nationalism.

It would feel weird to just start the game without it. There seems to be some innate desire to bring everyone together before a game instead of just starting the game. It helps set the gametime apart. A bit like having an opening hymn in church, I guess or a support act at a concert. I suspect there are other examples.

Of course, in modern sports, the introduction of the players is a big production with a light show and the big video screens, etc. So the anthem just sits awkwardly among all that hoopla. That wasn’t true 50-100 years ago, so the anthem helped create that liminal moment.

And colleges and high schools have bands that do the anthem and the alma mater. Doing the alma mater at the end of the game, with the players and fans singing together, is increasingly popular, though some schools have done it for a long time.

In Rollerball, they sang the Corporate anthem.

Maybe that’s the future.

[ursus arctos]

That is essentially what the Champions League "hymn" is

[Satchmo Distel]

Ok, let me clarify.

The organisation is supposed to be Black lives matter, yet we are seeing people from that organisation falling over themselves to tell us about their gender and who they choose to share their bed with. They are introducing other groups into the movement who have in the past shown hostility towards black people.

That's like me prefacing every post on White Supremacy by affirming I am a heterosexual black male.

No it's not. Heterosexuality and masculinity are privileged whereas women and LGBTQ people are disadvantaged. When black Trans women are murdered at higher rates than white Trans women, who in turn are murdered at higher rates than white CIS-gendered men, that tells you that black Trans women carry a double burden that cannot be reduced to one of the two components but must be addressed together. Black CIS-gendered women also carry a double burden and are murdered because our society is racist and misogynistic in a way that comes from connected sources. Having an inclusive movement is essential if you want to truly understand those connections rather than assuming that racism happens in a vacuum untouched by class, gender and sexuality.

[Tactical Genius]

No it's not. Heterosexuality and masculinity are privileged whereas women and LGBTQ people are disadvantaged. When black Trans women are murdered at higher rates than white Trans women, who in turn are murdered at higher rates than white CIS-gendered men, that tells you that black Trans women carry a double burden that cannot be reduced to one of the two components but must be addressed together. Black CIS-gendered women also carry a double burden and are murdered because our society is racist and misogynistic in a way that comes from connected sources.

I am really really glad you made this post.

Black Lives Matter (the slogan rather than the organisation) is inclusive and not exclusive, it does not assume any subsection of black society is more or less deserving.

So one needs to question the motives of people who want to subdivide groups of black people and engage with one upmanship. All this will end up with is the movement falling apart with internal bickering about who is more put about on by white supremacy or who should be prioritised.

It is interesting how you compare sub-sections of black society with their white counterparts completely oblivious that the power dynamics in black society is different.

Having an inclusive movement is essential if you want to truly understand those connections ....

Who said the movement is exclusive, can you point to anywhere this has been said, have I said this?

...rather than assuming that racism happens in a vacuum untouched by class, gender and sexuality.

Are you going to make an argument where saying you are Male/Female/Child/CIS/Trans/Gay will cause the race soldiers to go easy on you with their batons, If so I would be interested to read it?

[hobbes]

Didn’t really know where to put this, whether it be the WTF thread or here.
The cub is into Teen Titans Go at the moment, so as a little present I got him a set of figures off eBay for about a tenner.
when they arrived and he opened the packaging, Cyborg - in the cartoon an African American character - looks like this.
Now I didn’t pay much attention when buying them, but I really should have fucking noticed that and I’m annoyed with myself that I didn’t. still have work to do, I guess.
But what the hell?!? Who makes stuff like this?!

[Tactical Genius]

Didn’t really know where to put this, whether it be the WTF thread or here.
The cub is into Teen Titans Go at the moment, so as a little present I got him a set of figures off eBay for about a tenner.
when they arrived and he opened the packaging, Cyborg - in the cartoon an African American character - looks like this.
Now I didn’t pay much attention when buying them, but I really should have fucking noticed that and I’m annoyed with myself that I didn’t. still have work to do, I guess.
But what the hell?!? Who makes stuff like this?!

Is this the same colour as the other non-black characters?

[hobbes]

Basically, yeah. They’ve managed to get Beastboy green and Raven grey but this is the same skin tone as Robin and Starfire.

[ChrisJ]

I am really really glad you made this post.

Black Lives Matter (the slogan rather than the organisation) is inclusive and not exclusive, it does not assume any subsection of black society is more or less deserving.

As it should be.

So one needs to question the motives of people who want to subdivide groups of black people and engage with one upmanship. All this will end up with is the movement falling apart with internal bickering about who is more put about on by white supremacy or who should be prioritised.

Can you give some examples of people wanting to subdivide black people and play one-upmanship? I've genuinely not seen any, so I'd be grateful.

It is interesting how you compare sub-sections of black society with their white counterparts completely oblivious that the power dynamics in black society is different.

Again I'd be really interested to hear your take on this. Are homophobia, misogyny ot transphobia less of a problem, for example?

Who said the movement is exclusive, can you point to anywhere this has been said, have I said this?

I can't see where you've said that. I'll not try to speak for SD, but your earlier posts might have reasonably been read as exclusionary in the sense that you wanted the focus to remain solely on the blackness rather than other foci of oppression. "They are introducing other groups into the movement who have in the past shown hostility towards black people." sounds as though your beef is with other oppressed groups piggybacking on the BLM movement. It's good to hear this wasn't the case.

Are you going to make an argument where saying you are Male/Female/Child/CIS/Trans/Gay will cause the race soldiers to go easy on you with their batons, If so I would be interested to read it?

I really can't see how what SD said could be read that way. If anything, the very opposite.

[Patrick Thistle]

Didn’t really know where to put this, whether it be the WTF thread or here.
The cub is into Teen Titans Go at the moment, so as a little present I got him a set of figures off eBay for about a tenner.
when they arrived and he opened the packaging, Cyborg - in the cartoon an African American character - looks like this.
Now I didn’t pay much attention when buying them, but I really should have fucking noticed that and I’m annoyed with myself that I didn’t. still have work to do, I guess.
But what the hell?!? Who makes stuff like this?!

I wondered if the character had been redrawn and this was from a first wave of releases but it doesn't seem to have been the case. That's pretty terrible as toys go.

[Tactical Genius]

Basically, yeah. They’ve managed to get Beastboy green and Raven grey but this is the same skin tone as Robin and Starfire.

The reason i ask is this may be a penny pinching exercise to save on the plastic pigmentation costs. If so, that unwise in this current climate.

[laverte]

Black Lives Matter (the slogan rather than the organisation) is inclusive and not exclusive, it does not assume any subsection of black society is more or less deserving.

The protests erupted after police murdered a Black man, George Floyd. They didn't erupt after police murdered a Black girl, Breonna Taylor. It seems to take the killing/beating of a Black cis man – Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Rodney King, etc – for the media to take note, even though it can be argued that Black women experience the highest rates of homicide of any racial group in the United States, and Black trans women even more so. The failure to protest the deaths of Black women is not necessarily on Black men, or Black people altogether. But some Black feminists would question your assertion that, in reality, no sections of Black society seem to be consistently less deserving, their deaths less worthy of protest, than others.

It is interesting how you compare sub-sections of black society with their white counterparts completely oblivious that the power dynamics in black society is different.

i'm not in a position to argue this. Data suggest a more complex picture, though. For example, rates of intimate partner violence (rape, sexual violence and domestic abuse) in the US are very similar among heterosexual couples where both partners are Black and where both are white. Homicide is the leading cause of death for Black women aged 15-34 in the US, and although i haven't seen precise data, we know that more than half of young women (all races) are killed by intimate partners, and that more than three-quarters of Black people are killed by other Black people. It would seem likely that the power dynamics implied by these situations do in fact have something in common with what white and Asian people experience, namely, that women are the main victims of family and intimate partner violence. Their lives, and deaths, matter.

So one needs to question the motives of people who want to subdivide groups of black people and engage with one upmanship. All this will end up with is the movement falling apart with internal bickering about who is more put about on by white supremacy or who should be prioritised.

Erasing the distinctive experiences of women, and accusing them of fomenting discord, is exactly how male supremacy asserts itself. i would argue, from experience, that an identity-based protest movement is more likely to fizzle out and break up if the voices of most of its adherents are marginalised in the name of a 'unity' that does not and cannot exist.

[Tactical Genius]

Some interesting responses here, Chris J, you asked me a couple of questions earlier and i didn't respond to them as I wanted real life examples to illustrate my point. So here goes.

The protests erupted after police murdered a Black man, George Floyd. They didn't erupt after police murdered a Black girl, Breonna Taylor.

Are you implying people cared more about the death of George Floyd than Breonna Taylor because of gender. I just want to be 100% clear on that before I respond?

It seems to take the killing/beating of a Black cis man – Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Rodney King, etc – for the media to take note, even though it can be argued that Black women experience the highest rates of homicide of any racial group in the United States, and Black trans women even more so.

I cannot speak for the mainstream media (which has a racist agenda as we all know). But as OTF's resident angry black cis/hetro male I can assure you my information sources have given all black killings by suspected white supremacists equal coverage.
Note: the bolded bits are very important.
Again, I am not going to get into a debate with you or anyone at this time as to who is being put upon more by White Supremacists. That's what happened in the 1960's when the feminist and other non back organisations infiltrated the Civil rights and the Panther movement and destroyed it from within. Years later, we found out they were co-intelpro operations from people linked to the FBI and CIA.

The failure to protest the deaths of Black women is not necessarily on Black men, or Black people altogether.

Disagree, if that was the case then it would be a disgrace if black men or black people to be quiet. Just to be clear, is this you feeling.

But some Black feminists would question your assertion that, in reality, no sections of Black society seem to be consistently less deserving, their deaths less worthy of protest, than others.

Who are these people and what is their evidence?
I can only speak for myself and i would not agree. Do you agree with them?

i'm not in a position to argue this. Data suggest a more complex picture, though. For example, rates of intimate partner violence (rape, sexual violence and domestic abuse) in the US are very similar among heterosexual couples where both partners are Black and where both are white. Homicide is the leading cause of death for Black women aged 15-34 in the US, and although i haven't seen precise data, we know that more than half of young women (all races) are killed by intimate partners, and that more than three-quarters of Black people are killed by other Black people. It would seem likely that the power dynamics implied by these situations do in fact have something in common with what white and Asian people experience, namely, that women are the main victims of family and intimate partner violence. Their lives, and deaths, matter.

Lets stay on topic here.
The subject here is anti-black violence as a result of the system of white supremacy (hence the name of the thread). Engaging in whataboutery here is just muddying the waters.

Erasing the distinctive experiences of women, and accusing them of fomenting discord, is exactly how male supremacy asserts itself.

Are you saying I am doing this, if not, where does this comment come from?

i would argue, from experience, that an identity-based protest movement is more likely to fizzle out and break up if the voices of most of its adherents are marginalised in the name of a 'unity' that does not and cannot exist.

Again, who is doing the marginalising.
The news seems to say you are wrong, Police officers are coming on TV literally in tears crying they are unable to brutalise black people at will. Politicians are being forced to actually consider changing the laws to make police officers liable for their behaviour. Proscecutors up and down the country and being forced to re-open cases and put charges on Police Race Soldiers and legislators are feeling the pressure to make Karen's harassing black people a hate crime punishable with jail time.

All of this was done without an election, vote, debate, plebiscite, town hall meeting, Senete hearing etc so it seems to be working and will continue to work despite outsiders attempting to divide us on lines of gender or who we share our bed with.

[Satchmo Distel]

Feminism is an "infiltration" that destroys black movements? This is where we have arrived at in the thread?

What about the role that Elaine Brown and Angela Davis have played in the Panthers and later black activism?

[Tactical Genius]

Feminism is an "infiltration" that destroys black movements? This is where we have arrived at in the thread?

No, that is where you have arrived.
Please do not attempt to misquote me or twist my words.

What about the role that Elaine Brown and Angela Davis have played in the Panthers and later black activism?

What is your point here?