The White Supremacy thread

[Balderdasha]

Another racist confession. I managed to muddle up Sajid Javid and Sadiq Khan. I would really like this to be because both their names start with 'Sa' and I am a words person, but there is surely also a terrible element of 'they all look the same' at work somewhere.

[Patrick Thistle]

I have a question to the White people of OTF, Why do white people in general hate black people so much. This seems to transcend nationality, class and political ideology and to my knowledge has no basis in past historical misdeeds.
I have asked this in the past and not rarely received a decent answer.

I have theories, but would rather hear it from the horses mouth.

FYI, the answer to my question (or lack of) is linked to the ideologies for the groups Ursus has asked us about.

What would count as a decent answer?

My feeling is that it's not hate so much as indifference. People are generally oblivious to other people's suffering and white people often don't realise or understand the experiences of black people.

Terms like 'racist' don't help because that automatically gets people defensive. Even people who are racist generally don't like being called racist because racists are bad people and most people think of themselves as good. "I'm not racist, but..." is a joke for a reason.

So I think if you asked the question "Why do white people in general hate black people so much?" they'd either get affronted or just deny that white people hate black people. Because they just don't see it.

Personally I don't hate black people generally. There are one or two people who are black who I'm not keen on. But there are a lot more white people on my shitlist, that's for sure!

[Tactical Genius]

Ok, my take.

As I said on the other thread, these organisations stemmed from the Black Hebrew Israelites and their popularity grew in the latter half of the 19th Century where large number of black Americans moved from the South to escape the violence of Jim Crow and to find work.
Note by the late 1800's the type of Christianity being taught in the black churches had change little since the times of slavery, focusing on:
Black people were cursed on earth (the so-called curse of Ham).
Venerating a white Jesus and a White God.
Suffering is a virtue, the more you suffer on earth, the more you benefit in Heaven.
Turn the other cheek
Love and forgive your oppressor.

So there was a thirst for leaving behind this doctrine and ideology that taught black people there place is to be subordinate to whites and their history began on the slave fields.
The first mainstream ideology was from the black Hebrew Israelites who taught that black Americans were the true people of the bible and not white people and white jews who were labelled Edomites. They also preached that all the glories of antiquity were created by black people and that despite protestations to the contrary, white people are well aware of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...n_Jesus_Christ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

This kind of message clearly went down well with a group of people who had previously taught that they had no place in the history of man up until they were plucked from the jungles of Africa.
Note, the late 1800's were the time of Fredrick Douglass and Harriet Tubman as well as Black American writers and Historians who travelling back and forth from Africa formulating the genesis of the black empowerment movement.

One of the core themes of The black empowerment movement relates to how to view White people, and this is why I asked the question.
As a black person living in the west (Europe and North America), it is apparent from a young age that not only do most white people have a hatred for us, but our mere presence is enough to annoy the hell out of them no matter how we behave-unless we are engaged in entertaining white people (singing, dancing and playing sports).

This is not helped when we as black people ask self-described non-racist White people where this hate comes from, at which time they, become vague, clam up or attempt to move the subject on (See above responses). Now I am not having a go at Nefertiti, Ursus and Sporting, fair play for them even responding, but If that's the best OTF can come up with, then you can see why we would be mistrustful of white society as a whole, including those who claim to be our friends.
This leads black people to come up with their own conclusions which lead to interesting theories.
See below.

Most people in the Black Empowerment movement, contrary to popular belief do not teach to hate White people. They all teach not to trust them and many teach they are intrinsically evil for various reasons, including but not limited to:

They are indoctrinated to hate black people from an early age, an indoctrination most are unable to shake off in their lifetimes, maybe stuff like this is how it starts.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/29/woman...cist-11972555/

Their anti-black hatred is more nature that nurture, millennia in the frozen climes has hardened their heart and calcified their pineal glands (i kid you not)
https://www.africaresource.com/sci-t...e-for-africans

White people were butt hurt at being cast out of Africa for being a tribe of unattractive albinos Millennia ago and have been seeking revenge since AKA the Melanin Theory
https://www.blackhistorymonth.org.uk...elanin-theory/

White people were created in a laboratory by a mad scientist called Yakub 6,000 years ago. This is the doctrine espoused by the NOI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_(Nation_of_Islam)

Ok, gotta go. Feel to ask, I'll post more on the 5% later in the week.
a good start would be
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Percent_Nation

[Tactical Genius]

I had only Seen up to Nefs post when i penned my above post.

[Antepli Ejderha]

I'm really not sure why Tactical Genius but my guess would be the role of the church and religion in justifying slavery as a possible starting point.

The fear of the other and those forms of otherisation that have been used to demonize minority groups, and I don't just mean Black here but Jews, Irish and Roma for example. A can of worms that has been opened before.

Then there is the perceived threat which the media constantly tries to make us believe or tries to push certain crimes as being only in the Black community, for example knife crime. The use of stop and search targets young Black males with many white people saying that if they are not criminals why are they against it forgetting how it is a discriminatory tactic. Again the racism of the state and those with power is feeding a certain narrative.

I really do not know the answer but I do think your question isn't wrong, why the hate? I think there was and is a similar hate towards others but not in the same systematic way by the community as a whole.

I'm sorry if I'm rambling and genuinely do not want to offend anyone on here.

[Patrick Thistle]

I had only Seen up to Nefs post when i penned my above post.

No worries. You can count my post as equally vague and useless.

The problem is I don't know how to answer it from a personal point of view. But some observations.

I grew up in a majority white town. In a secondary school of about 1000 pupils we had 2 black kids and they had been adopted by a white couple. Yet I heard racism there and still think it's a racist place. For example the dad of one of my classmates thought it was funny to tell people he had seen black people looking at house for sale on our suburban estate because he thought people would be horrified by it. I don't understand that at all. That man was a twat. There's an insular mentality there and I think it's reinforced by a media that tends to only profile black people in that entertainment role that you talk about.

The doctor with the best audit figures in my work world is black. He works in one of the most deprived places in the Welsh valleys and his results are stellar. His white team adore him. I don't think he could achieve what he does without patients listening to his advice and following his instructions. So I don't know how to explain that. He's African originally btw.

I know when I worked with Somali lads at the multiplex a lot of people made generalisations about them as a group. But as you'd expect, they were all different. Some were driven and hard working. One was utterly feckless and unreliable. One offered to sell me a gun (out of concern for my safety given where I live - it was quite sweet really). One was such a strict Muslim he wouldn't eat bacon flavour crisps even though there was no way a pig had ever been near the bag. Others partied on Eid but otherwise didn't seem to care much. I learned not to assume anything about those lads.

So I think it's genuinely getting to know people that breaks down barriers. If you're stuck in a white town with white friends reading white newspapers then you aren't going to change much.

Dane Baptiste does a funny bit about white people saying they aren't racist but then saying how their grans say racist shit, then he tells the audience to fight racism by killing their grans. I laughed at that out of shock first time I heard it. But he has a point. It's very easy for white people to tolerate racism. I didn't flame the person in my (all-white) former office who used the word "darkies", although that was technically a sacking offence. In that moment I tolerated racism, because to challenge it would have been the hard thing to do and I took the easy way out.

So there's a personal point of view. Some of us white people are cowards when we hear racist comments.

Hate feels a strong word to use to describe many people's attitude. But maybe indifference and cowardice create a climate where hate can flourish. And then it feels like everyone hates.

[delicatemoth]

I have a question to the White people of OTF, Why do white people in general hate black people so much. This seems to transcend nationality, class and political ideology and to my knowledge has no basis in past historical misdeeds.
I have asked this in the past and not rarely received a decent answer.

This is such a good and important question and - I don't know. Some combination of resentment (at the continued survival and often thriving of people subjected to systematic discrimination); guilt (at our own participation in and complicity with discriminatory structures) and fear (that given the opportunity They will treat Us like We treat Them) is the best I can do. I know "become vague, clam up or attempt to move the subject on" describes my answer too.

[G-Man]

I'm not sure there's much profit in seeking answers from people who are idelogically opposed to racism anyway to provide answers in 450 words which a range of doctoral theses couldn't provide.

Racial and ethnic hatred is hardwired in humanity, in a game of domination and survival. Alexander the Great conquered Persia, much of the Middle East and Egypt on the understanding that Greeks were superior in every way to the ":savages" he subjugated. But when he tried to integrate these "savages", he met with resistance. Not because his army was worried that the "savages": might assert themselves, but because they were seen as inferior and unworthy of Greek superiority.

Greek culture is the foundation of Western culture, and here we find bigotry right at its roots.

Of course, racial, ethnic, tribal and social hatred is not just a Western thing. It's part of the human condition, even when there is no competition for scarce resources. The question is this: why are many people able to reject these hatreds as unnatural, and many others feel that these hatreds are perfectly natural.

[Balderdasha]

Patrick Thistle makes a good point about what level of racism white people are willing to tolerate.

My very racist dad, for example. When I was younger, I had many arguments with him about it. I once had a massive row with him when he said that he would hypothetically object to me having a relationship with a black man. In reality, he didn't object when I had a Polish boyfriend, or a Chinese boyfriend, or a Palestinian husband (though his actions since have shown he is not happy with my choice of husband, that's for another tale). So, I didn't know whether he specifically objected to the idea of a black partner rather than any other race, or if he's more racist in theory than in reality. In reality, he has worked with people of many different races, whilst he was a manager I know he promoted a black man against the wishes of his colleagues because he thought he was a good worker.

And yet, the racist language and anecdotes continue and I don't tackle them every time. It's not just racism, there's homophobia as well. The most recent thing I remember disagreeing with him on was when he read about someone selling a rainbow-coloured poppy and he objected to gay people 'making everything about them'. I don't rage against him any more. I disagree (there were numerous gay soldiers, they were specifically persecuted by the Nazis, why shouldn't they remember their dead? There are already black poppies to remember soldiers of colour and white poppies for pacifists, it's not going to stop anyone buying a red poppy), shut him down as quickly as possible and move the conversation on.

But, why don't I do more? Why don't I cut him off completely? There are many arguments for doing just that. He is an alcoholic in denial. He had an affair for 14 years then walked out on my mum having siphoned off enough money to buy another house with his mistress. He is racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic. He supports Brexit. He is beligerant and domineering.

But, he is the only father I have. I want my children to have a good relationship with their father and I hope, perhaps mistakenly, that by modelling love for my father and father-in-law that they will take it for granted that everyone loves their parents. I like for my children to have extra family who love them. They have a full set of grandparents at the moment and that gives them a pretty solid grounding. There are memories of times my dad helped out or demonstratated love to me or shared fun and laughter that I don't want to completely renounce.

He is not a huge part of my life. I see him maybe five or six times a year when he's not on a cruise ship (he spends half his life now travelling to different countries and yet, somehow, it has not broadened his horizons in the slightest, because all he sees is ports and on-ship cabarets).

i don't know how to do more.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

I have a question to the White people of OTF, Why do white people in general hate black people so much. This seems to transcend nationality, class and political ideology and to my knowledge has no basis in past historical misdeeds.
I have asked this in the past and not rarely received a decent answer.

I have theories, but would rather hear it from the horses mouth.

I mean there's a relatively straightforward material analysis, no?

White people materially benefit from racism and thus any move to oppose racism is a threat to them.

Racism emerged as an ideological framework for the purpose of justifying slavery and genocide as a natural order to undermine white opposition to it.

Anti-blackness was and is a way for persecuted groups with access to whiteness to advance themselves. And most capitalist states have been invested in propagating anti-blackness so as to fragment any unified opposition to them. Anti-blackness powers the prison and military industrial complex, supercharges border imperialism and is the driving ideology behind assaults on the welfare state (all things that co-incidentally provide massive benefits to capital). It is one of the fundamental principles that our society is based upon.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

I'm not sure there's much profit in seeking answers from people who are idelogically opposed to racism anyway to provide answers in 450 words which a range of doctoral theses couldn't provide.

Racial and ethnic hatred is hardwired in humanity, in a game of domination and survival. Alexander the Great conquered Persia, much of the Middle East and Egypt on the understanding that Greeks were superior in every way to the ":savages" he subjugated. But when he tried to integrate these "savages", he met with resistance. Not because his army was worried that the "savages": might assert themselves, but because they were seen as inferior and unworthy of Greek superiority.

Greek culture is the foundation of Western culture, and here we find bigotry right at its roots.

Of course, racial, ethnic, tribal and social hatred is not just a Western thing. It's part of the human condition, even when there is no competition for scarce resources. The question is this: why are many people able to reject these hatreds as unnatural, and many others feel that these hatreds are perfectly natural.

There's plenty of historical and pre-historical examples of emnity based on cultural and linguistic grounds, but racism is a different thing to that. The Albigensian Crusade or the Harrying of the North were genocides, sure, but they constructed motivations and and rationales that were distinct from and much less resilient than anti-black racism, which only really dates from the fifteenth century.

[anton pulisov]

You can only carry out slavery without feeling guilty about it if you construct a narrative in your head about the slaves being subhuman, no different than livestock. Slaveholders built an entire way of thinking around this attitude. When slavery went away, these attitudes didn't go away with them. In former slavedriving countries where the white people still form the vast majority, any time black people speak up about discrimination, it can do one of two things for the white majority population (1) activate the ingrained racist attitude, or in the case of the less racist white people (2) make them feel bad. But, in the latter case, instead of channelling this bad feeling to come to terms with what their ancestors have done, they lash out at the black people. 'Everything was fine until you brought up the past.' etc

What is interesting to me is how things seem to be moving much faster in terms of white-black relations in black majority South Africa. They seem to have achieved more in 25 years than the USA achieved in 150. Granted, I might be being fed South African media propaganda on that.

[Patrick Thistle]

I mean there's a relatively straightforward material analysis, no?

White people materially benefit from racism and thus any move to oppose racism is a threat to them.

Racism emerged as an ideological framework for the purpose of justifying slavery and genocide as a natural order to undermine white opposition to it.

Anti-blackness was and is a way for persecuted groups with access to whiteness to advance themselves. And most capitalist states have been invested in propagating anti-blackness so as to fragment any unified opposition to them. Anti-blackness powers the prison and military industrial complex, supercharges border imperialism and is the driving ideology behind assaults on the welfare state (all things that co-incidentally provide massive benefits to capital). It is one of the fundamental principles that our society is based upon.

I'd agree with all this. I imagine a lot of this is subconscious as well. People may feel a sense of threat and not know why.

[G-Man]

You can only carry out slavery without feeling guilty about it if you construct a narrative in your head about the slaves being subhuman, no different than livestock. Slaveholders built an entire way of thinking around this attitude. When slavery went away, these attitudes didn't go away with them. In former slavedriving countries where the white people still form the vast majority, any time black people speak up about discrimination, it can do one of two things for the white majority population (1) activate the ingrained racist attitude, or in the case of the less racist white people (2) make them feel bad. But, in the latter case, instead of channelling this bad feeling to come to terms with what their ancestors have done, they lash out at the black people. 'Everything was fine until you brought up the past.' etc

What is interesting to me is how things seem to be moving much faster in terms of white-black relations in black majority South Africa. They seem to have achieved more in 25 years than the USA achieved in 150. Granted, I might be being fed South African media propaganda on that.

Well, a bit of it is propaganda, a bit of it is real, albeit flawed. Racism and its effects are still with us, and most whites are still racist. The Rainbow Nation stuff is hot air, but there is a remarkable generosity among black South Africans. Whatever progress has been made in race relations, is thanks to that. Whites generally (and of course with many exceptions) have done very little, other than to transfer political power and to sing "Shosholoza").

The preceding paragraph make very good sense.

[ad hoc]

White anti-black racism seems to be fuelled by fear (to a much greater extent than most (or all?) other racisms.) The media and the "background culture" that the majority of us breathe in on a daily basis tells us that black people are criminal and dangerous and scary. The "subhuman" thing is very much there but it seems to be added to with this fear thing. AntiRoma racism in Romania for example has the subhuman thing but not the physical fear thing. Likewise (as far as I can tell) anti Hispanic racism in the US.

European Islamophobia has an element of it but it's a mass thing. We're not taught to fear individual Muslims rather the collective.

Not sure if any of this makes sense

[ursus arctos]

Likewise (as far as I can tell) anti Hispanic racism in the US.

I would have agreed with you on this five years ago, but ever since Trump came down the escalator and told the country that all Mexicans are rapists, there has been an unrelenting drumbeat of Murderous Latino propaganda on the likes of Fox.

See also the creation of "Antifa" as a pervasive violent threat to the "American Way of Life".

[Nefertiti2]

Don’t want to distract from
your important question TG but this deserves an audience I think.

[URL]https://twitter.com/maxsparber/status/1212418443007463424?s=21[/URL]

whist my answer was a bit hasty I think fear shame and cruelty are all relevant. I think also that as others have said people don’t want to give up what they have , either materially or their belief in their own ideas about themselves or their culture. The role of slavery in the wealth of the US and U.K. is something very few who benefit from that history wants to reflect on.

[laverte]

I mean there's a relatively straightforward material analysis, no?

White people materially benefit from racism and thus any move to oppose racism is a threat to them.

Racism emerged as an ideological framework for the purpose of justifying slavery and genocide as a natural order to undermine white opposition to it.

i am sure there's something in the materialist argument, and i'm glad BLT brought it up, but i find it a bit one-dimensional and i'm not convinced by either of the above statements. They could perhaps explain white racism as extreme rivalry or antipathy, but Tactical Genius very precisely asked about hate and i think our answer has to address the visceral and irrational elements of our hatred for Black people.

For me a defining feature of anti-Black racism is the hyperassociation of Black people with their bodies. This can be material but also metaphysical or mythological; it allows for racist ideology to be more than a matter of exploitation and indoctrination, and can help us understand the ways in which it is, for example, gendered. i've perhaps arbitrarily come up with three aspects of Black bodies that are commonly mythologised. One is their powerfulness. West African men were targeted for enslavement because of their (supposed) physical strength and size, so this is a founding feature of racist and separatist ideology (though it represents a challenge for white supremacy). But it goes beyond the material, into the phantasmagoric, in innumerable myths of Black giants, of Black devils, of Black men spreading fear and terror disproportionate to their number, and so on.

Another mythology of Black people is their non-cooperativeness. Seemingly mixing and concealing resistance and indifference, it is marked on the Black body as slackness, swagger, attitude. White people see this as a challenge, a refusal to submit to rules and norms which are necessary for living together, and while for some this is thrilling, for many it confirms that Black people are not interested in contributing to collective or civic goals. Black bodies are the bodies of outlaws.

A third, related myth concerns absence of restraint. This is the classic stereotype of semi-domesticated, irrational Black savages, in thrall to their urges and desires, prone to uncontrollable emotional outbursts (anger, lust, violence), making them unpredictable and unreliable. When combined with the first mythotype (power and physicality) and the second (non-respect for norms), this supposed tendency towards extreme behaviour can take on a terrifying animalistic dimension.

In this way the conflict between Black and white is no longer about individuals living in proximate rivalry but becomes civilisational. Blackness is a threat to order and to the values we have struggled for. It's a threat to our history and our identity as white people. This association of Black bodies with a language of threats and terror is what allows us to project whatever fears and hatreds we feel onto Black bodies.

However, in doing so, in mythologising them as powerful, liberated and transgressive, Black bodies and thus Black people are also fascinating to us. The Black body can be a source of desire and identification and danger and fetishism. i believe this is one way in which we are able to deny our racism. Another is that, by constituting Blackness as an embodied mythology, we can observe that there are many Black people whose bodies do not conform to what we fear and despise about them. In this way we are able to achieve the extraordinary feat of loving and cherishing these particular Black people, by drawing them out of their Blackness, while continuing to feel a visceral ideological hatred for 'true' Blackness and the people who do embody it.

ETA: i started writing this yesterday and realise that some of my arguments have been made in the interim, sorry.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Another mythology of Black people is their non-cooperativeness. Seemingly mixing and concealing resistance and indifference, it is marked on the Black body as slackness, swagger, attitude. White people see this as a challenge, a refusal to submit to rules and norms which are necessary for living together, and while for some this is thrilling, for many it confirms that Black people are not interested in contributing to collective or civic goals. Black bodies are the bodies of outlaws.

I've got to say that you don't have to watch too much premier league punditry, or read too much fan social media or BTL comments to run into this phenomenon. Graeme souness in particular seems to have an enormous problem with this.

[Patrick Thistle]

I had what I thought was a tangential thought about this yesterday but what Laverte has said has made me think it again. There's definitely different degrees of blackness. For example in Cardiff people generally don't refer to people in the Somali community as black. It would be "he / she is Somali". Whether that would reflect any difference in how white people relate generally to them I don't know but there would definitely be a distinction between Somali people and other black people. On a personal level I experienced this when I worked with several Somalis and also a lad from Kenya. No one would have grouped them all together as 'black'.

[Furtho]

I had what I thought was a tangential thought about this yesterday but what Laverte has said has made me think it again. There's definitely different degrees of blackness. For example in Cardiff people generally don't refer to people in the Somali community as black. It would be "he / she is Somali". Whether that would reflect any difference in how white people relate generally to them I don't know but there would definitely be a distinction between Somali people and other black people. On a personal level I experienced this when I worked with several Somalis and also a lad from Kenya. No one would have grouped them all together as 'black'.

Haven't Irish and Italians previously been described as black?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Not so much black, but there were times when neither was considered 'White'. Same for jewish people.

[Tactical Genius]

Alot of interesting comment on here. I don't want to comment on any of the posts as I don't want to give the impression I am judging anyone here as I am well aware that the theories put forward are not necessarily ones you hold.

[Patrick Thistle]

Did any of it help answer your question, though?

Also you said you had some theories - I'd be interested in hearing them.

[Gangster Octopus]

This probably belongs here.