The White Supremacy thread

[Tactical Genius]

That's very interesting. Would love to read some studies on that. They probably did some radiocarbon dating (my thing).

Africans had been going back and forth for Thousands of years.

A good author on this is a guy called Ivan Van Sertima who wrote an excellent book called "They came before columbus"
African historians like him, have been labelled by the mainstream as "Afrocentric" despite them not being able to debunk anything they say. Primarily because their sources are European.
Here is an old video of him here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1CikpRIr0
and a short write up here
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl...772-story.html


About 25 years ago, A German scientist tested some Egyptian dummies and found traces of Tobacco and Nicotine. This was hailed as a major breakthrough until people realised the implications of this and started to roll back (you will see this is a common theme).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

You can see the similarities between the pyramids in Africa and those found in Central America (not conclusive I agree, but these types are pyramids are not found elsewhere)

There is also this, which is about as conclusive as one can get. When the Olmec statues were discovered The initial reactions was, "wow, look at these ancient african stone heads". Then people realised the implications of this and started to roll back. You then had nonsense, like "These must be Japanese, they must be abstracts, they have big noses and big lips because there were football players and their faces are disfigured due to the contacts sport and the nature of it (like rugby players and boxers)





I really really really look forward to Berbaslugs comments on this.
But before you reply Berba, I would pose you a few questions:

What was Columbus doing for the decade before sailed to the new world.
What happened to the predecessor to Mansa Musa
Why do they never show photographs of the Olmecs from the side

Finally, Christopher Columbus says it himself as he was told that by the locals he met on his voyages.

[Tactical Genius]

hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. it's definitely possible, just extremely difficult.

The distance between west Africa and south america is only 1600 miles, but that is still quite a distance from the carribean. That's a rather tricky journey to make given pre-colombian sailing technology. The earliest european trips to north america essentially island-hopped via iceland and greenland, and took a fucking long time.

Distance is immaterial, much more important are ocean currents and winds anyone why has a cursory knowledge of sailing will confirm this.

There were numerous complex sailing routes globally before the age of European colonialism between Africa and Asia/Pacific islands and the new world.

[ursus arctos]

[ChrisJ]

Distance is immaterial, much more important are ocean currents and winds anyone why has a cursory knowledge of sailing will confirm this.

There were numerous complex sailing routes globally before the age of European colonialism between Africa and Asia/Pacific islands and the new world.

I was told by a reliable source (man who delivers transoceanic yachts for a living, ie by sailing them across oceans) that if stuff floating down Gloucestershire rivers remained unencumbered and not waterlogged, it would probably fetch up in the region of St Lucia.

TBF, he never said anything about how it might get home again.

I'm not sure why it's plausible that vikings could make the crossing in N Atlantic conditions but Africans couldn't in the mid-Atlantic.

[Lang Spoon]

The tobacco/coke thing could also be contamination from modern archeologists. Cocaine was widely and legally available in the early 20th cent, let alone more recent decades.

the Olmec heads could also be said to resemble facial features of the indigenous folk living there. Or stylised versions thereof. Deffo nowt to do with the Japanese. No evidence genetically of West African contact pre 1492. It all seems a bit like the Gavin Menzies China "discovered" America stuff. Or folk who argue Pyramids existing in two diff continents means there must have been contact. As opposed to similar cultural memes popping up at different places at different times without any such cross cultural contact (the Highlanders of Papua New Guinea "invented" their agriculture without any contact with Near East or Chinese peoples as far as we can tell). The pyramids in the Americas also had a completely different religious purpose to those in Egypt/Sudan.

[Lang Spoon]

Though there was probably some Polynesian/South American contact pre 1492 re the sweet potato. And maybes some folk from Africa ended up in the Americas. But getting back would really be an issue. The diff with the Vikings is the fairly short hops from Iceland then Greenland to Vinland. And the winds getting you back again fairly easily.

[anton pulisov]

Europeans view the Atlantic from the prism of the North Atlantic. Storms, huge waves, etc. But you go down south and hop on to the trade winds and it is indeed like being on a calm and steady river. With clear skies. I've watched loads of sailing videos on YouTube about this stuff. The trade winds crossings are supposedly uneventful and boring, and not at all dangerous. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some Africans made it across.

[anton pulisov]

The tobacco/coke thing could also be contamination from modern archeologists.

Plant material is pretty much the perfect material to radiocarbon date. So it would be interesting to date that tobacco. If it dates to pre-Columbus then it's an open and shut case.

[Lang Spoon]

Though there are also nicotine producing plants that were known to the Egyptians. Maybe the coke is where to focus.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

despite them not being able to debunk anything they say

heh. I'm not sure that's how 'history' is supposed to work. It's supposed to be the other way around. (otherwise you wind up with the History channel, and all their programmes about ancient aliens, which can't be debunked.....) I have no problem with the idea of people travelling from africa to South America in the past. I would be surprised if someone hadn't done it, even by accident. It's a tiny journey compared to some of the polynesian migrations, and I mean there are now people who row single handed across the Atlantic. (there's a local lad here who recently did it after giving up on the Heroin) The other thing is that I'm fairly convinced that St Brendan made the journey from Ireland to canada in the middle of the sixth century. His Navigatio which was first written down middle of the ninth century was one of the more widely transcribed books of the middle ages. And essentially describes a voyage from Ireland past the shetlands and hebrides, up to Iceland, past active volcanos and giant icebergs, before eventually winding up in an island of Grapes. Which bizarrely enough is exactly what is on the other side of the atlantic, and is what the Vikings called their settlement in the 11th century. Tim Severin built a replica of the boat described in the book, and made the journey, and discovered that the boat was ideally suited for such a voyage, provided you didn't get caught up in the storms. (he also concluded that once you took out all of the religious bullshit like finding an island with judas iscariot on his weekends off from hell, that it's a really good description of an actual voyage)

I'm just not sure that there was a regular trade between the two continents, because if west Africans had the shipbuilding technology to carry out regular journeys to south America, before columbus..... well the world would look like a very different place now, also those Olmec heads are nearly 3000 years old, and that might be a bit of a stretch. Also that simply might have been what Olmecs looked like. there's apparently plenty of people walking around Veracruz today who look a lot like that, but have no identifiable african genetic heritage (even though Veracruz is the 'blackest' part of mexico, and has the largest number of people of african descent.) I also wouldn't lean too heavily on the pyramid thing either, a pyramid is just the obvious way to build a really large building, and in essence is just a man made mountain and they turn up everywhere from indonesia to Illinois.

But ultimately the main barrier to finding out about pre-colombian contact between brazil and west Africa is that within a decade of europeans arriving brazil, most people were dead, and their civilizations collapsed, their wooden settlements had rotted, and their farmland was swallowed by jungle, before Europeans encountered them at all. And where people weren't killed by disease, they were having their cultures deliberately razed.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Europeans view the Atlantic from the prism of the North Atlantic. Storms, huge waves, etc. But you go down south and hop on to the trade winds and it is indeed like being on a calm and steady river. With clear skies. I've watched loads of sailing videos on YouTube about this stuff. The trade winds crossings are supposedly uneventful and boring, and not at all dangerous. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some Africans made it across.

yes, but it's not easy to get back to africa. That's where the problem lies. You'll probably wind up in france or england, which was great for the triangular trade, if not for Africans.

I'm not sure why it's plausible that vikings could make the crossing in N Atlantic conditions but Africans couldn't in the mid-Atlantic.

They weren't crossing the north Atlantic though. They were only crossing the Labrador sea. They lived on the south western coast of Greenland which really isn't that far for vikings. I am kind of surprised though that the Vikings didn't make more of a go of it. Maybe they were spreading themselves too thin. perhaps You can either found Moscow (By sailing through gibraltar, up the dardanelles and up the volga) or you can settle north America, but perhaps not both.

[Lang Spoon]

Hang on man, there's no need to found "Russia" by hitting the Volga via the Med, if you are heading south and east from Sweden into the Baltic states/Belarus/Kievan Rus/Russia. Though they did both routes. There were never enough people in the Greenland colony or necessary materials like wood to then successfully plant folk in Newfie.

[anton pulisov]

sailing through gibraltar, up the dardanelles and up the volga

Provided you have an amphibious boat.

[anton pulisov]

Paper from the 1950s about Maize in Africa in 'pre-Columbia' time.. Google 'sci-hub' if you want access.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

You think that the vikings would sooner walk 450 miles through nothing, than sail up a river? I think you misjudge them.

[Lang Spoon]

There would have been rivers on the way to the likes of Novgorod, they would have rolled their boats on logs where there were no direct water routes. They were in Eastern Europe before they smashed through the Byzantine chain at the Golden Horn to gain access from the south.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Paper from the 1950s about Maize in Africa in 'pre-Columbia' time.. Google 'sci-hub' if you want access.

It's about a bit more than Africa. They found evidence of maize cultivation in kashmir dating back to the 13th century. But that doesn't really say anything about where it arrived first, just that Kashmir has more glaciers than africa. (We're going to miss ice cores when they're gone) I like the way that the people writing accounts of their travels around africa go to such painstaking lengths to make it abundantly clear that these people have been eating maize, for as long as they can remember, and it's definitely maize, and not anything else. (the language could do with a bit of an update though. It's really quite jarring.)

[anton pulisov]

There would have been rivers on the way to the likes of Novgorod, they would have rolled their boats on logs where there were no direct water routes. They were in Eastern Europe before they smashed through the chain at the Golden Horn to gain access from the south.

No, the Vikings went in through the Med, up into the Black Sea. Then they disassembled their boats apart into handy flatpack format, hauled everything over the Caucus mountains, reassembled them on the Caspian coast, and, after feasting on caviar, sailed into the mouth of the Volga.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Volgograd is only a little more than 30 miles from the don river, and it's very flat. There are also tributaries between them that halve the distance, and they only needed two feet of water. also they did effectively have amphibious boats, and many of them could simply be carried, or rolled on logs. I feel though that we have strayed very far from the original topic.

[Lang Spoon]

Volgograd as a documented city only exists from the mid 16th century. But yes, we have strayed very far off topic.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Volgograd as a documented city only exists from the mid 16th century. But yes, we have strayed very far off topic.

Yeah, but a big part of why it is where it is is that it's so near the don. There's a canal there now.

It would seem that Florida is being Florida again.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Volgograd as a documented city only exists from the mid 16th century. But yes, we have strayed very far off topic.

I'm not sure how TG is going to feel about his thread becoming a celebration of the roving efficacy of the Vikings.

[Gerontophile]

I think he'll find it ironically hilarious.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Well it is tangentially relevant, if only because their descendants became the ruling class of England, and their rapacious culture of piracy, plunder and violent domination, laid the groundwork for a global Empire.

It's also a little less depressing than this.

40 is a nice round number.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I came home to find my dad watching a programme on national geographic, about the Kush kingom in Sudan, and they keep referring to George Andrew Reisner. He was a big cheese in archaeology back in the day, who went to the Sudan and discovered some truly ancient, and extraordinary things, and decided that this was clear evidence that the Sudan was once inhabited by enlightened light skinned people. The documentary is about an international archaeological re-examination of some of the Kushite kingdom graves, and the narrator has so far a) referred to the archaeologists as "Trying to right some of the cultural crimes reisner committed against the people of Africa". but also "Reisner was too blinded by delusions of racial superiority to be able to understand what he was looking at."

The mad thing about this is that it wasn't exactly a secret what the Kushite/nubian Kings looked like. They ruled egypt as the 25th dynasty for 100 years, and Egypt reached its greatest size under them, and there are references to them all over the middle east, but not in egypt, where the next set of pharoahs tried to erase them from history.. They even get mentioned in the bible because they defended the temple of solomon against the assyrians. It would seem as though the Sudanese sun may have damaged Reisner's brain.