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    #76
    I think that the key to understanding this is just to remember how far to the right the whole UK political spectrum is. Jeremy Corbyn could move to the left, by proposing to become a "centrist" european social democratic party. A lot of centrist Labour MPs would happily have been tories, if Labour weren't a much better bet from 1992 on. or if the tories were still like they were under Heath. A lot of labour centrist voters are people who define themselves as centrist and reasonable people, and define themselves by where the edges of the party and given where the 'extremes' of the labour party are, they wind up espousing positions held by US democrats. The Tories have gone full blown Tea Party Paul Ryan madness.

    The UK has an income inequality level directly comparable to the USA. It's taken a long time to get there, and the first and third New Labour govts really didn't help in this respect. Other northern European countries are comparable with where the UK was in the sixties and the seventies. The UK govt's share of GDP as 36% which was absurdly low by european standards, New Labour only got it half way to the Northern European average. Taxation is low in the UK by northern european standards, as is spending, but they're not necessarily aligned, so you manage to get the worst of both worlds. The UK system could function reasonably well at these levels of spending and taxation, if the Govt was trying to run things as well as they could, but that's not really what's going on in the UK. Tories systematically aim to move money from the many to the few, and that fucks everyone up, it's also a deeply unpopular policy, with only 11% of people in the UK agreeing with the proposition that the Govt needs to be smaller. Yet Liam Fox is 'negotiating' 'trade deals'. This in itself wouldn't be a problem if Labour had been acting in the opposite direction when they were in power, rather than agreeing to stick with the Tories spending figures for the first three years of their first govt, and allowing that to set the tone. It doesn't help that the UK has the 40th freest press according to RSF, and only part of that is due to the ownership model. A lot of it is down to the UK's rather draconian secrecy laws, and lack of protections for Jounalists.

    This is a big part of the problem. If you're defining yourself by your position relative to the two extremes, rather than believing in certain principles, or way of doing things, then you are at risk of being moved to the right by the way that debates are framed. This is how people who really should know better find them in a situation where they have to listen to "legitimate concerns." because these concerns can be made legitimate by three quarters of the UK press ranting about them every day.

    But there's another issue tied in here that confuses things. The old concept of the political parties had them split on their economic policies, they were coalitions of People who can agree on economic policies but who can have fundamentally different opinions on social policies, I was pretty horrified to see for instance that in Ireland the split was 53% Economically left, but of that 54%, two thirds described themselves as socially conservative. (I.e. people want the state to give them more money because it suits them, but then want the state to ruin the day of everyone who isn't like them) You can want the govt to increase your pension, but you have legitimate concerns about migrants, primarily because you believe that they are getting money that should ideally be spent on you. You get to be treated equally, even though you're really an Enoch powell who has fallen on hard times. there's a lot of this going on in the UK and what you get is the sort of "Centrist" person who in spite of having fairly conservative economic policies can define themselves as more left than they think they are, simply because they don't want to put a saddle on black people or foreigns.

    it's not easy to see a solution to this. The UK is fucked, and watching this whole brexit thing leads me to suspect that the next ten years are going to be horrendous on a scale that will make people long for the days of Generous Gideon. Perhaps the opportunity will arise for a fundamental restructuring of the UK political system along more rational lines. the UK will learn a better sense of itself and its place in the world, and start to act appropriately. However it's far more likely that the UK is going to continue its slide into polite respectable fascism. largely through the medium of people being incapable of assessing economic or political decisions on their own merits, rather than choosing their position in relation to what people they don't like are saying. The Centrists say to the "left"wing of the labour party "We'll all drown in our own faeces if we don't first die of hunger if we leave the EU." "Yeah well Iraq" say too many people. Meanwhile Jacob Rees mogg has become one of the most influential people in the UK.

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      #77
      Ian Gittins?

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        #78
        . Blair's decision to bring the UK to war despite the widespread and conspicuous opposition by the British public to any involvement was what initially led to the current disillusionment and disengagement with centrist politics.
        That is only defensible if for "centrist politics" you substitute "New Labour". The party which still takes a centrist position, the Liberal Democrats, were vehemently and consistently opposed to the Iraq War, and ploughed a lonely furrow in Parliament to that end. I'm proud of the Lib Dem record on Iraq, just as I'm proud now of our standing up and opposing the Brexit catastrophe which the Tories are driving us over the cliff into and which Corbyn's Labour is doing fuck all to avoid.

        I'm in a centrist party not because I'm motivated by "centrism" but because Brexit is the most important and disastrous thing in British politics in my lifetime and we can't afford to sit by and do nothing while Corbyn colludes with the Tories to let it happen.

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          #79
          Sure. I’ve a feeling I’ll be deflated by who it was.

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            #80
            Originally posted by Janik View Post
            Eh? They are doing precisely that. What is the anti-semetism stuff all about apart from a vitriolic media campaign intended to smear him and by association the project? Or the implication that Corbyn is a Russian agent? See the front page of today's Sunday Times for the latest laughably desperate example of that trope. They are having to find new angles like those for the vitriol because the standard attack, used successfully on Milliband and unsuccessfully in the US on Obama, that he's a socialist will be greeted with a shrug and a response of 'Yes, and proud. What of it?'.

            Whether it can work or not, and whether your, erm, interesting assertation on the last page that Corbyn can only be beaten through the faults of others rather than his own personality and politics, is very much to be confirmed.
            Yup, they are trying it but it is not likely to work.

            Anti-Semitism is pretty much the nuclear option, because everyone agrees it is a bad thing, even though no-one can quite define exactly what it is, and no-one likes arguing about it because you end up looking like a Nazi. But I doubt the 12.8 million people who voted for Corbyn the supporter of IRA terrorism, the attender of commemorations for Munich murderers, the friend of Hamas, the dancer of the way to the Cenotaph, the stealer of veteran's lunches and and the non-singer of the national anthem (plus whatever I've missed out) are likely to be deterred by the latest campaign.

            I doubt it will be effective in bringing out Conservative support because that support must be getting very grudging. I can't imagine there are many people out there feeling enthused FOR May and her government. There is likely to be a significant - perhaps decisive - "Can't be bothered, they don't deserve my vote, a plague on both your houses" sentiment.

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              #81
              I'm in a centrist party not because I'm motivated by "centrism" but because Brexit is the most important and disastrous thing in British politics in my lifetime and we can't afford to sit by and do nothing while Corbyn colludes with the Tories to let it happen.
              It was your lot of Tory enabling spivs who put us in this mess in the first place. If you'd let the fuckers fail rather than being into bed with them for a few crumbs at the table then austerity wouldn't have driven a load of the population to look for an alternative.

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                #82
                <applause> hobbes makes up for a decade of proverbial wrongness with a post of sublime rightness

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                  #83
                  Well said Hobbes.
                  I'll leave the rest of the thread alone or i'll fall out with half the board.

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                    #84
                    Ah go on, you know you want to

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                      #85
                      Some excellent posts here, very glad to be back.

                      Re music journalists, I'm not aware of Collins and Maconie's politics (though Stuart Maconie has revealed a remarkably avant garde taste on in rock on his Radio 6 show). Certainly, in the 70s and well into the 80s, NME's leftwingness was a given, though looking at some Facebook posts by some ex-NME journos, it appears that a few back then were maybe keeping their true thoughts to themselves.

                      Re Melody Maker, I'm not aware of anyone who has drifted to the (centre) right - most of the current anti-Leftists always felt that way. There has been a drift the other way, however - in the 80s and 90s, both Simon Reynolds and myself were wary of NME's politicking on aesthetic grounds as much as anything (The Redskins, etc), while I was very pro-Blair when he first arrived. Both of us are today very much to the left. Simon Price has always been steadfastly leftist.

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                        #86
                        ^like^

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                          #87
                          I genuinely don't know if it's possible to have "too many" people expressing the sentiment "But what about Iraq?" The revisionism and the lack of self-examination in Britain about that war is central to understanding the fragmentation of politics that now exists here. If one were to base one's views purely on how it's been represented in the mainstream media, one could be forgiven for thinking that the Iraq War was something that the UK blundered into for unfortunate but understandable reasons as opposed to what it really was - an imperialist, murderous and callous invasion of a brutalised, immiserated nation half a planet away that posed no threat to the UK's population. It was scarcely different to what the UK had always done up until the Second World War - the British political class taking the decision to invade and occupy a foreign land without regard to how many people would die as a result - except that, since the advent of the US as a world power, the UK was no longer the biggest bully in the playground. The consequences, both foreseen and unforeseen, of the war are still being experienced and the aftershocks haven't run out of power yet. This was a catastrophic fuck-up of historic proportions. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead as a result. Hundreds of British service personnel have either been killed or had their lives ruined thanks to the physical and mental injuries they sustained while fighting an enemy they never needed to fight.

                          yes, but what has that got to do with anything? There are more important things to deal with right now. This is still thinking that can only be charitably as angry venting for the sake of venting, or more succinctly as enraged stupid whataboutery. People need to fucking focus. The UK is about to be fucking harried like the North was in the 11th century. Consider the difference between this and the re-emergence of Bertie Ahern to talk about the peace Process. Irish people were able to say "You destroyed the economy and bankrupted the state you crooked cunt" but also "Your involvement in, and advocacy of the GFA does not change how we feel about the Good Friday agreement."

                          It's unfortunate that Tony Blair lacks all self awareness, and talks about these things as though he's still relevant, and he's still insulated from the outside world by the belief that because he thinks he's a good person, then all of his actions are good and moral. Because he does far more damage than good, and makes it more difficult for labour to lean towards the EU. yes he's a slimy creep, but the people who are pushed away from the EU cause by blair sticking his oar in, are fucking morons, who are wallowing in impotent anger, and have lost sight of the important thing, if they ever had sight of it in the first place. Tony Blair will remain a millionaire after Brexit, he won't miss the NHS in any meaningful way.

                          But this all feeds into the way that british Politics has been moved inexorably to the Right, by making things about personalities, rather than policy positions. Maggie Thatcher is a strong leader, therefore her assault on democracy and society was less important to people at the time, until she lost her magical charm, and then had to go. People thought Tony Blair was some sort of Fucking messiah in 1997 but didn't pay attention to him politically being a tory with a smiling face, who did next to nothing about addressing the gaping holes torn by thatcher. God alone knows what Cameron's appeal was but he was more of a Leader leader than Sad gordon Brown, or Ed Milliband. Theresa May ascended to the throne with the reputation of strength, constructed by shitting on the weakest in society, but it turned out that she was a dangerous incompetent but weak as piss. Now Corbyn is the new Messiah for some people and instead of everyone trying to come up with anything remotely approaching a coherent policy on anything, or an effort to stop brexit everyone is involved in some variation of the "He's the messiah"/"He's a very naughty boy."

                          the left is going to get fucking nowhere if they can't pick targets, and focus on them. It's important to stop focusing on individuals, and start thinking about Ideas. this is fucking politics, not a fucking soap opera. it's bad enough that this is the culture surrounding football. having it as the culture surrounding politics is a large part of the reason that the uk is so fucked.

                          also attacking countries or doing irredeemably stupid and shitty things is kind of what the british govt does, pretty much regardless of who is in power. It's in their Governmental DNA. Shouting at blair about a long forgotten war, does literally the square root of fuck to stop the UK from doing irredeemably stupid and shitty things. Nothing bad is going to happen to Blair. It's like howling at the fucking moon. There's a time and a place for that.
                          Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 30-04-2018, 16:01.

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                            #88
                            Namely, the mindset of many centrists and lapsed or middle-aged Leftists, i.e.: people who would have considered themselves Left wing in their youth but have drifted away because of what they see as the tenets of Leftist thought being incompatible with reality.
                            I'm not sure that describes a lot of yer modern middle-aged white male centrists. Accepting that this discussion's inevitably going to generalise and be anecdotal, I don't think these people have swing away from the left. I think they always thought left activism too earnest, too demanding, too uncool for them to bother with, and in New Labour and the pop-cultural climate of their mid-90s young prime (Britpop, Loaded etc), they found their sweet spot, their vindication, and a comfort zone. They'd never be the nasty old Tories, but they needn't bother themselves with the things that were broken 20 years ago and are even more broken now.

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                              #89
                              Yer centrists are charming us all one again on the Gaza issue, ad hoc having just been called an antisemite for no apparent reason

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                                #90
                                x
                                Last edited by Nefertiti2; 18-05-2018, 11:32.

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                                  #91
                                  I suspect this bloke (I hope this bloke) is not in favour of what is happening, but has rather decided that something I said which was very general and annoyed at how we (all of us who had been on this particular thread of wingco's) had ended up away from the subject and got into a debate onto Hamas (which is just of course what Israel likes us to do). This apparently was evidence that I am anti semitic. (He's followed it up by identifying my phrase "racially motivated mass murder" as evidence)

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                                    #92
                                    Yer centrists are charming us all one again on the Gaza issue, ad hoc having just been called an antisemite for no apparent reason
                                    By ex music journo, sometime GQ contributor and deputy editor of Men's Health no less, and almost comical vindication of your analysis.

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                                      #93
                                      Originally posted by N est à? View Post
                                      By ex music journo, sometime GQ contributor and deputy editor of Men's Health no less, and almost comical vindication of your analysis.
                                      I'd never heard of him (save as one of the floating centrists on wingco's wall). Do you think it will upset him to know that?

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                                        #94
                                        Apologies to wingco but he's absolutely dreadful, politically. And when it comes to Palestinians, a racist.

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                                          #95
                                          I'd never heard of him either, but I was curious to know if he was another of the centrist journo massive, and... bingo

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                                            #96
                                            Just to fully round out the cruel, Simon Hedges style parody, this guy has an EU flag badge as his avatar, with sabotEUr (geddit??) written on it.

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                                              #97
                                              Actually I don't really get it. He's Brexit? Or he's antiBrexit? It's not clear to me.

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                                                #98
                                                Anyway I'm out. The guy is obviously an utter cunt, and unlike some of the other centrist journos of this thread can't even seem to argue effectively. One would imagine that a professional writer, could successfully wield a pen/keyboard, but in this case, not even that.

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                                                  #99
                                                  Sorry this is really unfair to everyone here, having a back channel chat about another conversation that's going on somewhere else, that you can't all see. Apologies.

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                                                    Seen it, and know why you're out. I'd never heard of the chap either...

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