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    Surely the big takeaway here is that at a time when it's not a euro-election or another type of 'this doesn't count, so much' election, Labour won in a 60-40 Leave area against a resurgent Brexit Party when the entire reason for the by-election was because of criminality of the previous Labour candidate. I mean, this should have been a gimme for Farage. Labour shouldn't have come close, as the 40% who voted remain should have fucked off, but 60% of them stuck with Labour. This is perfect territory for the Lib Dems, and they were fucking miles away.

    This says that when presented with meaningful important choices about the future government of the UK, voters know that Farage is a cunt, and the Tories are fucked. Labour's promise has always been that once the GE is called, the momentum-driven ground game will sweep much before it. This seems to be holding up as the single most important truth in this whole thing; the Labour Party's strategy and tactics seem to be holding up. Labour are holding their nerve whilst others (myself included) have been losing theirs.

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      Dunno how wingco sticks some of his facebook friends. I read a few threads and got so angry at them, not so much their views as they way they put them across, that I had to open a window and brew up. Honestly. Do they speak like that to you in person, wingco?

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        It's the most white middle-aged, middle-class male echo chamber I've ever seen. And I work for a liberal media news organisation.

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          Self-involved nonsense from the lot of them. I'm not going to comment obviously, because I haven't got the time to be patronised by them all.

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            Originally posted by EIM View Post
            I'm not going to comment obviously, because I haven't got the time to be patronised by them all.
            Make a drinking game out of it. Down a shot every time one of them writes any of the following:

            "Listen, you fucking idiot..."
            "Um, you do realise that..."
            "Have you ever actually fucking MET any Iraqis?"
            "Look, I'm no fan of Blair but..."
            "But Hamas!"

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              I've banned about 10 of them and I could STILL play that drinking game. I sort of admire the lovely Wingco's patience, but wonder why tf he puts up with these awful people. If they were "faces" on some sort of writing scene 20 years ago, they're not now, they're just nasty pub bores.

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                Originally posted by NHH View Post
                Surely the big takeaway here is that at a time when it's not a euro-election or another type of 'this doesn't count, so much' election, Labour won in a 60-40 Leave area against a resurgent Brexit Party when the entire reason for the by-election was because of criminality of the previous Labour candidate. I mean, this should have been a gimme for Farage. Labour shouldn't have come close, as the 40% who voted remain should have fucked off, but 60% of them stuck with Labour. This is perfect territory for the Lib Dems, and they were fucking miles away.

                This says that when presented with meaningful important choices about the future government of the UK, voters know that Farage is a cunt, and the Tories are fucked. Labour's promise has always been that once the GE is called, the momentum-driven ground game will sweep much before it. This seems to be holding up as the single most important truth in this whole thing; the Labour Party's strategy and tactics seem to be holding up. Labour are holding their nerve whilst others (myself included) have been losing theirs.
                Don't usually agree with NHH, but word.

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                  Originally posted by Nesta View Post

                  To give you a flavour of the atmosphere on that thread, I suggested that a Centrist Mate who'd posted a particularly angry response should 'wipe the foam away from your mouth', and was accused of using an ableist slur... (like all corbynistas do, natch)

                  Edit: Espirit d'escalier, but I should have responded by claiming that using 'corbynista' is racist, but the moment is gone.
                  Yes, that was indeed ridiculous, and pretty much par for the course for that guy from what I can see. I did ask quite how that was an abelist comment, but funnily enough he didn't seem anywhere near as keen to respond to my question as he had to make the accusation in the first place.

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                    I've just been defriended by a strongly pro Israel (non-Jewish) friend on facebook.

                    He had posted about Dr Rosena=Alliin Khan accusing Israel of separating Palestinian children from their parents and leaving them to die alone. He asked whether sUch things happened and if so why- he wanted evidence to write to her as his MP because he feared she was pro Palestinian.

                    A number of his mutual friends- who include Euan Phlipps from "Labour Against Antisemitism" called this a "calumny" and an example of the 'blood libel"

                    I was unable to resist and described what the blood libel was. My friend asked me to stop posting, and I did- until someone else said there was "a genocide" currently going on against Jews in Britain. I said that was nonsense and offensive to the victims of the Sho'ah. after some toing and froing I was unfriended

                    I was unfriended. I sent the following email:

                    Dear X

                    I’m sorry that you no longer wish to be friends with me on facebook. I'd ask you to reflect for just a minute about what it means that you are unfriending me about Israel/Palestine- and specifically “the blood libel"

                    My father was in a concentration camp. My great grandfather was murdered by the Nazis. I’ve spent the last years researching exactly what happened to him.

                    I’ve recently discovered at least fifteen of his siblings, in laws and cousins were murdered or committed suicide.

                    So I hope you can appreciate that I find it offensive when my credentials are challenged and why I have little time for those who make unjustified analogies about the UK in 2019 and Germany eighty-five years ago. You asked me to stop posting and I did. I was then challenged by someone who claimed there is a “genocide” going on in the UK.

                    (For some reason you didn’t challenge your friend who posted that- although if the word “genocide” has any meaning whatsoever you must surely acknowledge that is a lie. )

                    If you no longer wish to be facebook friends with me, that is of course your choice.

                    I’m sorry though that you wish to erase my opinion- and my experience.

                    yours nefertiti2
                    Last edited by Nefertiti2; 09-06-2019, 11:34.

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                      Thing is, once I put up one of these posts Facebook I tend not to follow the slew of Centrist responses (not immediately, anyway) - not because I can't handle counter-argument but because if I rose to the bait, I would simply get nothing done. Also, they tend not to address the specific point I make in the post but simply drag the topic back to their pet grudge. Then, one or two of my perhaps less nuanced left wing FB friends will steam in, say something mildly fatuous and they gang up on them triumphantly, as if to say, This Is The Reason We Can't Have Socialism. It does seem extraordinary how much time some of them have on their hands. Sometimes, two, three days after the initial post the blaze of comments, counter-comments, etc, is still going on. Some of these guys are actually very dear friends, v different in real life from how they come across on FB, others I hardly know. It is tempting just to block them from political posts but then, I do find their responses educative, albeit not in the way they intend.

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                        Nef, that is absolutely appalling.

                        I hadn't fully realised that they were that out of touch with reality and am sorry that you had to experience that.

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                          Normally I let it pass,

                          What is scary is that at least one of these people is hugely influential in determining who will be called anti-semitic in the Labour party- ironically on the basis of what they have written on facebook.

                          I'm slightly sad in that it was an opportunity to go behind the curtain- and a reminder of quite how extreme they are.

                          at least 50 per cent not Jewish and many of the Jewish contributors from the US or Israel.

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                            Yes, terrible stuff, Nef.

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                              He's someone I quite liked, and saw a few times a year. It was quite pleasant as long as we stayed on safe topics. He voted in favour of Brexit. (He is increasingly anti-Islam too)

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                                The conscious radicalisation of those who tend to be older, isolated (often in gated communities or retirement homes) and poorly informed has been going on here for more than 20 years, but really took off after 9/11, when the Pam Gellers of the world found that the amount of attention they got was directly proportional to the extremist nonsense they spouted. Adelson has provided hundreds of millions in funding, but is far from alone in doing so.

                                And yet at the same time, increasingly large numbers of younger Jews here are beginning to see what is going on. It is tearing some families and congregations apart.

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                                  Nef, that makes me sad and angry. I'm sorry you get this crap, I'm sorry for all of us being smeared and silenced.

                                  It's a matter of tension and sadness to me that one of my closest friends is also friends with the vile woman with the anti-Corbyn billboard trucks, although she spends almost no time with her offline, she doesn't come to birthdays etc. and I go round once a week. They're just together online in their anti-Corbyn groups.

                                  I was unfriended by a woman who's more of an acquaintance this week, the mate of TAO, who objected when I posted about Peterborough. She left with a passing dig about my being uninteresting (huh!) and my populist politics being not dissimilar to Trump and Farage.
                                  Last edited by MsD; 09-06-2019, 12:23.

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                                    Thanks for the kind words, friends.

                                    When the President of the British Board of Deputies calls Jewish Labour members who support Corbyn "antisemitism deniers" I find it extremely upsetting especially when many of them were refugees from the Holocaust or from the second or third generation.

                                    The increasingly arcane accusations of anti-semitism against Labour from those with no interest in anti-semitism except as a weapon against Corbyn and now being repeated by the far right, and Farage supporters have really poisoned the well of politics. It's upsetting, and it's dangerous.

                                    I also have a number of Jewish friends who are concerned or anxious about Corbyn. If you say something often enough it becomes the truth

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                                      Originally posted by NHH View Post
                                      Surely the big takeaway here is that at a time when it's not a euro-election or another type of 'this doesn't count, so much' election, Labour won in a 60-40 Leave area against a resurgent Brexit Party when the entire reason for the by-election was because of criminality of the previous Labour candidate. I mean, this should have been a gimme for Farage. Labour shouldn't have come close, as the 40% who voted remain should have fucked off, but 60% of them stuck with Labour. This is perfect territory for the Lib Dems, and they were fucking miles away.

                                      This says that when presented with meaningful important choices about the future government of the UK, voters know that Farage is a cunt, and the Tories are fucked. Labour's promise has always been that once the GE is called, the momentum-driven ground game will sweep much before it. This seems to be holding up as the single most important truth in this whole thing; the Labour Party's strategy and tactics seem to be holding up. Labour are holding their nerve whilst others (myself included) have been losing theirs.
                                      Yes and that means Labour can continue to fudge Brexit and ignore what their members want.

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