Grenfell flats fire

[Tubby Isaacs]

Not like judges have a history of supporting the establishment, is it? Or that there's a history of judicial cover-ups/whitewashes of state abuses and violence.

This technocratic reverence with which "serious" people talk about the judiciary is a cancer. The judiciary is a bunch of old, publicly-schooled, white men making decisions that back the status quo. Sure, they're independent of the government but that doesn't mean they're on the side of residents of council estates.

"Public-schooled".

He was educated at The Skinners' School, Tunbridge Wells,

I mean, Christ, yeah, judges. It's just old boy network establismentism that makes people think they're the right people to chair enquiries. I mean nobody would think presiding over complicated legal cases all your life made you well-qualified to preside over complicated public inquiries, eh?

Law is a bit "technocratic", I should think. I've no idea why that's an insult for the judiciary. As it happens, I think the general public do trust judges. They were the most trusted profession after doctors and teachers in the survey I just looked at, beating scientists- which is pretty impressive considering all the shit they get from the media about being out of touch softy old fools. As doctors and teachers never do anything like presiding over an inquiry, let's go for a judge.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Isn't the issue with this judge his past rulings in favour of local councils socially cleansing working class tenants?

Specifically his decision that tenants who turn down houses 50 miles from their support network can be treated as "intentionally homeless"?

"Rulings"? It was one ruling, and he gave leave to appeal, which he didn't have to do if he just wanted working class tenants socially cleansed.

How many of his other judgements are you familiar with? Lawyers seem to think he's OK.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Emma Dent Coad, give it up, please.

https://twitter.com/daily_politics/s...00278726311936

Martin Moore-Bick can't chair the inquiry because residents of Grenfell fear they'll be socially cleansed, apparently. I thought the problem was the remit was too narrow, and he was just going to look at the causes and spread of the fire?

And she knows (never having met him) that he "doesn't understand human beings".

[Sean of the Shed]

It took 24 minutes from the first call out to dispatch a 30m aerial platform to the fire. They also had to call in a 60m aerial platform from Surrey. London Fire Brigade does not own a 60m aerial platform, despite the fact that London has the top ten tallest buildings in the UK, and 44 of the top 50. Also Matt Wrack was saying on the BBC News that there are now only two counsellors for the whole of the London Fire Brigade to deal with Post-traumatic stress, cut from 14 under the previous Mayor Boris Johnson. The British press needs to confront this fucker over the cuts made during his tenure.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Joe Delaney was on the Today Programme on Radio 4 this morning, he was again logical and rational when speaking. From 1.22.20 on the link below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08wmk8k

[HindleA]

Would recommend following/reading tweets by Celeste Thomas @mamapie for actual facts to combat the spewing of lies.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Grenfell: fire-proof cladding specified by architects used only on ground floor

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...y_to_clipboard

No surprise this.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Joe Delaney was on Channel 4 News again tonight, he really does come across well in putting forward the needs of the residents.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Apparently the representatives of the judge have been in the area telling residents they've got eight days to submit written submissions to the inquiry.

[johnr]

As a union rep on my work's Joint Consultative Cttee, I was pretty shocked yesterday as a top boss read through their response to the Grenfell fire in an "I can't be bothered with all this red tape" voice. He was then bombarded with examples of blocked fire exits, missing signs, faulty alarms, no fire drills for years etc that soon changed his expression and tone.

He'd have been right at home on the Government's Cut Red Tape committee.

[Felicity, I guess so]

As a union rep on my work's Joint Consultative Cttee, I was pretty shocked yesterday as a top boss read through their response to the Grenfell fire in an "I can't be bothered with all this red tape" voice. He was then bombarded with examples of blocked fire exits, missing signs, faulty alarms, no fire drills for years etc that soon changed his expression and tone.

[Lang Spoon]

And it begins. Thanks for PFI, Tony!

[Antepli Ejderha]

Three hospitals have now said that they have the same cladding.

[Alderman Barnes]

Well, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's more than enough reason to get him off the case. Go for that specifically, rather than just complaining that he's an out-of-touch posho (which of course he is).

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

I agree with all that, and I suspect that the government are specifically looking for a cover-up and have chosen the right man to deliver it, but all this "technocrat who can't empathise" stuff is very weak. That's just saying you don't like the look of him, which isn't good enough, when surely you need to be looking at a) the ridiculously limited remit of the inquiry and b) what the man has said and done in the past, such as allowing those people to be relocated to Milton Keynes. Surely it can't take all that much digging to find something more solid.

Isn't the issue with this judge his past rulings in favour of local councils socially cleansing working class tenants?

Specifically his decision that tenants who turn down houses 50 miles from their support network can be treated as "intentionally homeless"?

[Alderman Barnes]

Not like judges have a history of supporting the establishment, is it? Or that there's a history of judicial cover-ups/whitewashes of state abuses and violence.

This technocratic reverence with which "serious" people talk about the judiciary is a cancer. The judiciary is a bunch of old, publicly-schooled, white men making decisions that back the status quo. Sure, they're independent of the government but that doesn't mean they're on the side of residents of council estates.

I agree with all that, and I suspect that the government are specifically looking for a cover-up and have chosen the right man to deliver it, but all this "technocrat who can't empathise" stuff is very weak. That's just saying you don't like the look of him, which isn't good enough, when surely you need to be looking at a) the ridiculously limited remit of the inquiry and b) what the man has said and done in the past, such as allowing those people to be relocated to Milton Keynes. Surely it can't take all that much digging to find something more solid.

[Lang Spoon]

I think it's fair to question whether a judge who thinks it's perfectly proportionate to force someone to take social housing 50 miles from their community or face being termed intentionally homeless is the right pick for this. But it's the terms of reference, and whether there will be a more wide ranging inquiry that's really important. The judge is secondary really.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Says heavyweight legal commentator, Chris Williamson. Now on the front bench. See also "Remainer Europhile judges".

Thankfully, David Liddington, the Justice Secretary, has already put out a statement supporting the judge.

Not like judges have a history of supporting the establishment, is it? Or that there's a history of judicial cover-ups/whitewashes of state abuses and violence.

This technocratic reverence with which "serious" people talk about the judiciary is a cancer. The judiciary is a bunch of old, publicly-schooled, white men making decisions that back the status quo. Sure, they're independent of the government but that doesn't mean they're on the side of residents of council estates.

[Tubby Isaacs]

If you look at his record, it does seem that there have been one or two cases where he has tended to come down, when he has made his judgements, on the side of the establishment and he has been overturned in the supreme court on that basis.

Says heavyweight legal commentator, Chris Williamson. Now on the front bench. See also "Remainer Europhile judges".

Thankfully, David Liddington, the Justice Secretary, has already put out a statement supporting the judge.

[Tubby Isaacs]

What do they need to do better? "Manage" the anger of victims?

Williamson and Lammy don't have to be saying anything.

Dent Coed has a much more difficult job, but personal attacks on the judge as an inhuman "technocrat" and the like is daft.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I was puzzled by that. He's strongly condemning the attacks on the judge, but doesn't see his call for a boycott as feeding into it.

There is one man who's getting it exactly right though, and fair play to him.

Jeremy Corbyn is not backing the shadow fire services minister’s call (see 1.43pm) for Sir Martin Moore-Bick to resign as chair of the Grenfell Tower inquiry, according to a party source. The Labour leader “has not called for him to go”, a source said.

Corbyn has demanded a two-part inquiry looking first at the specific issues at Grenfell and then a wider examination of national issues. And he also wants transparency and the full involvement of the residents in the process, a source said.

[E10 Rifle]

Yer man Jolyon Maugham QC seems to think they've got a bit of a point

[E10 Rifle]

What do they need to do better? "Manage" the anger of victims?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Local MP and Chris Williamson (now on the frontbench) saying the judge should be replaced for, as far as I can tell, no very good reason. Lammy was doing the same yesterday.

I take the point about survivors but MPs need to do better here.

[E10 Rifle]

I think it would be absurd to boycott this. I mean how does that work? You might have info about stuff that failed disastrously and could go wrong in other flats and kill people, but you boycott the inquiry?

I think raising the spectre of a boycott is at least a useful bargaining tool, which looks like it might already be having an impact. I don't feel massively inclined to tell people who've survived this harrowing event what to do, really.