How much better is Europe, really?

[Reed John]

Here's a desperate attempt on my part to make myself not feel so bad about being an American in these dark times...

Are there any other modern industrialized nations with a political culture as morally bankrupt and based on lies as ours? Russia, maybe, but they don't count.

Any other examples that will let me think "oh, well, at least we're not the only ones. It's not just because we're stupid, but because it's hard to do."

And what of supposed paradises like Sweden, Norway, etc? My boss and I were talking about all of this the other day and I said "well, Sweden probably has a lot of problems too," but I couldn't think of any except that I've heard they tend to be a bit more racist (although they don't have a lot of minorities so it's sort of moot) and it gets a bit dark there in winter.

Discuss.

Why are we so totally shit at this modern democracy thing that we supposedly invented? Are there useful parallels that can be drawn with why England haven't won anything of note in football in over 40 years?

Compare and contrast.

[Etienne]

How much better is Europe, really?

Italy seems to be the worst in Western Europe at the moment. Though each country has several things that I'd imagine are worse than the US.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

Are there any other modern industrialized nations with a political culture as morally bankrupt and based on lies as ours?

Italy is giving it a bloody good go at the moment.

And actually, I don't think the US political culture is as horrendous as all that; it's at a very low ebb right now, and in general its faults get magnified because the country's so powerful, but nearly all democracies go through periods of shitness. As I say, Italy is doing that now as well.

[Incandenza]

How much better is Europe, really?

Ganja always complains about Sweden's healthcare system. Though I still can't imagine how it can be anywhere as bad as ours.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Etienne wrote:

Italy seems to be the worst in Western Europe at the moment. Though each country has several things that I'd imagine are worse than the US.

Snap!

[Eggchaser]

How much better is Europe, really?

Sweden practised enforced eugenics for 40 years, forcibly sterilising mentally ill people. So they're out straight off the bat.

Still, lovely good looking women (presumably all the ugly ones were not allowed to breed more mingers).

[ursus arctos]

How much better is Europe, really?

Etienne and Wyatt beat me to it.

Some evidence to back us up.

[Reed John]

How much better is Europe, really?

I've also wondered if Sweden, et al aren't headed for some very tough choices. Are they not headed for a demographic crunch such that they will have lots of old people depending on benefits supported by too few working people? We're faced with that here too with our Social Security and Medicare, but of course those benefits aren't as generous.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, several of the countries with great services like France still have a fairly low birthrate. Anecdotally, I've heard that people there are holding off having kids because its so expensive. But if you've got all this free childcare, etc, why is it expensive? I just don't get that. It seems like having free childcare, healthcare and education might lead to a population boom. I just don't understand all of that. Or maybe I just don't know enough about it.

[Incandenza]

How much better is Europe, really?

Eggchaser wrote:

Sweden practised enforced eugenics for 40 years, forcibly sterilising mentally ill people. So they're out straight off the bat.

So did California, and many other states in the US. Not just mentally ill people, either--criminals that were judged to have committed "immoral" crimes.

[Reed John]

How much better is Europe, really?

As opposed to the moral crimes.

[San Bernardhinault]

How much better is Europe, really?

Bah. America has minor state parks that are more impressive than the whole of Britain put together. The Lake District or Snowdonia would be scorned and considered rather low key in small counties in upstate Maine.

We may be slightly more liberal than you, and have more universal healthcare and old buildings and football, but our politics is almost as shallow and cynical, is far less influential, and you have the most spectacular landscapes in the civilised world (give or take some stretches of the Alps). Provided you go and play in Utah and Colorado and Arizona once a year, you shouldn't really feel too bad about having to put up with your vacuous media obsessed airheads ahead of our heavyweights like Boris Johnson.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Mencken wrote, though, about how often the American built environment jars with the natural one, as if struggling to defeat or at least ignore it. He was right, I think: America lacks harmonious dialogue between architecture and landscape. There's no American Toledo. Well, there is. But you know what I mean.

[San Bernardhinault]

How much better is Europe, really?

It's easy, though, to build something that doesn't jar with a flat, marshy estuary in south-east England. I imagine it's harder to build something that doesn't jar with the Grand Canyon.

[Etienne]

How much better is Europe, really?

Lanterne Rouge, Reed did specify political culture though, rather than overall national attractiveness or we wouldn't all be queuing up to nominate Italy. Well, Purves and linus might.

[WOM]

How much better is Europe, really?

There's no American Toledo. Well, there is. But you know what I mean.

Nope.

[San Bernardhinault]

How much better is Europe, really?

Oh, and America is, at least, still secular. And even the looniest statements by the current insane right-wing government don't want to change that. Whereas the most left-wing government Britain has ever had hasn't bothered to even really address secularising Britain. And they have an elected head of state, too.

[Reed John]

How much better is Europe, really?

Actually, I don't, but I don't know much about the other Toledo.

I thought harmony with the landscape was what Frank Lloyd Wright was all about. No?

We still do have a lot of great natural places, but maybe that's just because white people haven't been here long enough to destroy them all. Certainly, all of our national and state parks, forests, gamelands, preserves, etc, are under constant threat from development, pollution, mining, drilling, logging, etc.

I don't know how our overall record of conservation and preservation compares to that of other countries. It's hard to compare to Europe because so much of Europe was dramatically changed by people before it occurred to anyone that that might not always be a good idea. We can't really compare ourselves to Brazil, Mexico or anybody in Africa because we're so much richer and therefore have less excuse for bad land management. Canada and Australia have a lot of open space, but not nearly so many people trying to gobble it up (plus, so much more of the land in those places is pretty much unihabitable anyway).

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Toledo, not Tilbury.

[San Bernardhinault]

How much better is Europe, really?

Etienne wrote:

Lanterne Rouge, Reed did specify political culture though, rather than overall national attractiveness or we wouldn't all be queuing up to nominate Italy. Well, Purves and linus might.

But he shouldn't be depressed at the politics being very mildly more crap than Britain when so many other things in America are better.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

I thought harmony with the landscape was what Frank Lloyd Wright was all about. No?

Yes, and he has a few houses in Oak Park, while the rest of Chicago screams "FUCK YOU!" at the prairie. I mean, it's exhilirating, but I'm glad the whole world's not like it.

[Houdi Elbow]

How much better is Europe, really?

And what of supposed paradises like Sweden, Norway, etc? My boss and I were talking about all of this the other day and I said "well, Sweden probably has a lot of problems too," but I couldn't think of any except that I've heard they tend to be a bit more racist (although they don't have a lot of minorities so it's sort of moot) and it gets a bit dark there in winter.

Sweden has sizable African, South American, Iranian, etc communities as a result of their liberal immigration/ asylum policies. Having lived there I would say it was a paradise compared to the UK, but with colder winters and slightly more expensive beer. A right wing government was elected a couple of years ago so I hope that their welfare state isn't dismantled to the extent that it has been in the UK. The last time I visited the signs weren't encouraging as it was the first time I had seen people begging on the streets.

As far as I could see, Sweden didn't have anywhere near the levels of poverty and associated social problems that we have. That didn't stop people from moaning about paying too much tax - I always told them to be careful what they wished for.

[San Bernardhinault]

How much better is Europe, really?

I'm not sure that the skyscrapers in Chicago (which are the best in the world) are really that jarring, are they? They're not really any more incongruous that Blenheim Palace, say? Apart from well worn stone cottages what does Europe really offer in terms of non-jarring architecture that America doesn't have?

[Reed John]

How much better is Europe, really?

Yes, and he has a few houses in Oak Park, while the rest of Chicago screams "FUCK YOU!" at the prairie. I mean, it's exhilirating, but I'm glad the whole world's not like it.

I always thought the fuck you was directed at Lake Michigan, the lazy bastard.

Taxes are so high in Sweden, I have to assume that there are trade-offs compared to the lifestyle we have in the US or even in Britain. Obviously, if you're low-income, you'll be a lot better off in place that offers so many essential services for free, and that's great. But perhaps there are things that middle-class people here take for granted that are out of reach for most over there. I don't know what those things are though.

And not to be all right wing supply-side, but I have to believe that having such high taxes does deter some companies from building there and does encourage a lot of entrepreneurs to take their money elsewhere. That can't be good for the overall employment and economic picture. Perhaps it's compensated for by other advantages, but I imagine it's an issue.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

Yes, and he has a few houses in Oak Park, while the rest of Chicago screams "FUCK YOU!" at the prairie. I mean, it's exhilirating, but I'm glad the whole world's not like it.

I always thought the fuck you was directed at Lake Michigan, the lazy bastard.

Yeah, those large inland bodies of water just sit on their arses all day.

[Wyatt Earp]

How much better is Europe, really?

La Lanterne Rouge wrote:

I'm not sure that the skyscrapers in Chicago (which are the best in the world) are really that jarring, are they? They're not really any more incongruous that Blenheim Palace, say? Apart from well worn stone cottages what does Europe really offer in terms of non-jarring architecture that America doesn't have?

Fucking Toledo, man. Toledo.