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    Lads, that's an article about remainers, that doesn't mention a single person from two whole fucking countries that voted to remain. or a UK resident from another EU country. That should be the one of the first things you notice.

    Comment


      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
      No, lets make this very clear here. I don't start off by saying anything of the sort. I start off by saying that this is an article about how a lot of middle class english people are twats. That is a description of the article, not my opinion. My opinion is that we all already knew this, and that this is true of all societies. Also this article is almost entirely about middle class english people aside from one deranged person from port talbot, and a brief nine word quote from an american living in cardiff, the only mention of the rest of the UK is an oblique reference to the Scottish referendum. I don't think a single person mentioned in the entire article is scottish or irish. (except for fintan o'toole) this is an article about middle class english people, written for middle class english people.

      this is just a pointless navel-gazing article.

      Fair enough. I thought it was a decent chronology of events and a fair-minded exploration of positions, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

      Comment


        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
        Lads, that's an article about remainers, that doesn't mention a single person from two whole fucking countries that voted to remain. or a UK resident from another EU country. That should be the one of the first things you notice.

        I think that a fairly swift Google search will provide you with the odd ten thousand or so articles that do.

        Comment


          It doesn't make a single mention of the major pro-eu party in the UK parliament. How can you write about UK remainers and not mention the SNP?

          Comment


            Scotto myopia (barring reverently publishing The Thunderer Broon's latest sermons against The Virus of Nationalism/the panacea of (quasi) Federalism) is how the Guardian rolls.

            it also doesn't fit the narrative.
            Last edited by Lang Spoon; 13-08-2019, 18:43.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post


              That was in the Guardian article.
              That's why it is in the thread, NS

              Comment


                Well, it's a thread about Brexit but the Tweet was introduced as a new contribution when in fact it appeared in an article we were in the process of discussing, and therefore not new, unless we're giving value to Trevor Bastard's ancillary comment.

                Comment


                  It is fuckin hilarious but. Never trust a Jolyon.

                  Comment


                    Trevor Bastard's ancillary comment is quite apropos if you ask me.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                      It doesn't make a single mention of the major pro-eu party in the UK parliament. How can you write about UK remainers and not mention the SNP?
                      It's about an English phenomenon.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

                        It's about an English phenomenon.

                        Quite a few people are name-checked with no indication where they are from, so I'm not sure why TAB assumes that they're all English.

                        I'm particularly doubtful about "warm, rosy-cheeked" Finbarr O'Halloran.

                        Comment


                          Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                            Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.
                            True. And Steve Deacon could be a third-generation Frenchman for all we know, which is probably a good reason to not just to label everyone an English twat and instead focus on the quality of their opinions.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                              Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.
                              There ain’t millions of English folk with Irish ancestry who go to UCC though.

                              Comment


                                Was that referenced in the article, Flynnie?

                                Comment


                                  Also, when discussing Brexit, surely the fact there is absolutely no guarantee at all that Remain would win a second referendum is a salient topic. this article helps analyse that, you’ve got a bunch of generally well off, self satisfied people who seem to regard Brexit as a part of the culture wars. Which is the problem really: the country has made shockingly little progression on understanding what the EU does, what the British state does, etc. Yes, of course Leavers are generally even more ignorant about the EU, but they won.

                                  You’ve been living in Nottinghamshire for years and can’t rebut the sovereignty argument? What have you been DOING with your time?

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                    Was that referenced in the article, Flynnie?
                                    You know google exists right? There ain’t a lot of Finnbar O’Hallorans in Bristol, no matter the size of the diaspora.

                                    Comment


                                      https://twitter.com/MikeH_PR/status/1161334214480007168?s=19

                                      The replies are better than the Tweet.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                                        I'm particularly doubtful about "warm, rosy-cheeked" Finbarr O'Halloran.
                                        You can google most of these people. He's from bristol. he's lived there for over 40 years at least. It's in the piece. All of the politicians mentioned are english (Except for a few foreign leaders) All of the activists are coming from a specified parts of england, most of them have names that would get you killed outside of rarefied social environments. Plaid Cymru get a brief passing mention, the SNP not at all.

                                        My problem with that piece is that it suggests that remainers are slightly weird people, mostly from middle class english urban bubbles, as opposed to half the fucking population, and a majority in scotland and Northern ireland. Also, you know, you can arrive at these positions not because you're part of some quaint english tribe. You can get there by knowing the first fucking thing about how the EU works.

                                        It's about an English phenomenon.

                                        Well why do they primarily talk about britain and talk about a 52:48 result. It was 53.4: 46.6 in england. In the rest of the UK there were four remain votes for every three leave ones. There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland. Wales was slightly leave, but less than England. You can find plenty of Scottish people who voted for remain on twitter. They're also focused on the imminent disaster, but they're less into twee memes though, and more into direct personal abuse, and angry invective.

                                        Also I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't think that the England is particularly out of line with the European norm when it comes to the proportion of people who engage in twattish behaviour. My problem is that this article focuses almost exclusively on a subset of English people who are often carrying on in a particularly twattish way. (I am not a fan of hashtag based political movements)

                                        BTW Does Wales get the same newspapers as England, or is there a special Welsh version of the Sun, and Mail like in ireland or scotland?
                                        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 14-08-2019, 00:01.

                                        Comment


                                          Wales doesn't have what passes for Scottish print media, no. Just local papers, no Herald/Scotsman/Daily Record equivalent, let alone separate editions of the English papers.


                                          though the days when the Scotsman and Herald especially were respected broadsheets with their own Foreign Correspondents dotted hither and thither seem v far off now.
                                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-08-2019, 00:30.

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                            There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland.
                                            Come again?

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                              You can google most of these people. He's from bristol. he's lived there for over 40 years at least. It's in the piece. All of the politicians mentioned are english (Except for a few foreign leaders) All of the activists are coming from a specified parts of england, most of them have names that would get you killed outside of rarefied social environments. Plaid Cymru get a brief passing mention, the SNP not at all.

                                              My problem with that piece is that it suggests that remainers are slightly weird people, mostly from middle class english urban bubbles, as opposed to half the fucking population, and a majority in scotland and Northern ireland. Also, you know, you can arrive at these positions not because you're part of some quaint english tribe. You can get there by knowing the first fucking thing about how the EU works.

                                              It's about an English phenomenon.

                                              Well why do they primarily talk about britain and talk about a 52:48 result. It was 53.4: 46.6 in england. In the rest of the UK there were four remain votes for every three leave ones. There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland. Wales was slightly leave, but less than England. You can find plenty of Scottish people who voted for remain on twitter. They're also focused on the imminent disaster, but they're less into twee memes though, and more into direct personal abuse, and angry invective.

                                              Also I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't think that the England is particularly out of line with the European norm when it comes to the proportion of people who engage in twattish behaviour. My problem is that this article focuses almost exclusively on a subset of English people who are often carrying on in a particularly twattish way. (I am not a fan of hashtag based political movements)

                                              BTW Does Wales get the same newspapers as England, or is there a special Welsh version of the Sun, and Mail like in ireland or scotland?
                                              I don't know what "people" are doing. I think the article is a very good piece of ethnographic reporting about a curiously English phenomenon. It also helps to explain why they've (so far) failed. They have no analysis of power. Instead of marching with twee posters about cups of tea they should have been occupying the Daily Telegraph or JCB headquarters. They should have picteted the Institute of Economic Affairs. Arranged boycotts of Wetherspoons. They should have been building links with the Trade Unions and (like you) they shouldn't have wasted so much time attacking Jeremy Corbyn, and thus strengthening their opponent.

                                              Comment


                                                TAB's complaint seems essentially to be "This is an article about cricket. Why isn't it an article about football?" I thought it was a bit too broad-brush, and veered too awkwardly between opinion and reportage, but it was about a phenomenon that is, if anything, under-reported and needs to be talked about: the inner workings and failings of a significant and vocal section of the Remain campaign. TAB may wish they weren't a significant and vocal part of the remain campaign, but the fact is they are, and the fact is this contributes to why Remain has been such an unsuccessful political movement so far, so lacking in self-awareness and ability to reach out. All the things in fact - dogmatism, purism, intolerance of nuanced opinion - that the left is so often accused of.

                                                Remain has so much logic and morality on its side, yet it's still failing. That's worth examining.

                                                Comment


                                                  Agree broadly with that E10.

                                                  I'm ready to meet Nef half-way and have dissed drinking at the Spoons, reading the Telegraph etc. until further notice. Picketing a pointyhead think-tank or bricking Bamford's is obviously different- it needs people to be willing to risk kettling, arrest or worse. Remain doesn't (yet) have an equiv to the Hong Kong students or New Lodge bonfire builders*

                                                  * eagle eyed viewers seeing this on the national news last week may have spotted my old primary school aka the Hillman Street UDA HQ at right of picture. Or at least they would have had it not been demolished in the 90s

                                                  Comment


                                                    Very well put, E10.

                                                    TAB keeps on critiiquing the piece as some sort of comprehensive and overarching analysis of Remain and then finding it wanting, whereas it's merely a look at one part of the opposition to Brexit.

                                                    Comment

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