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    I'm absolutely sure. It's not the Labour 'moderates' I'm talking about here. It's the Jolyons and their ilk. They can't stand socialism, but wrap up their disdain in their - justified, of course - pro-EU stuff.

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      Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
      I think it's a cover for some of them, but there is a certain strain of hardcore Remainer for whom Brexit genuinely is the worst, or indeed only bad, political event that has ever affected them personally in their lifetime, and they literally can't comprehend that it isn't the only thing that matters for everyone else too. So they get completely enraged when Corbyn devotes PMQ time to something trivial like homelessness or the NHS or poverty. It's a charmless tactic and, with Brexit on such a knife edge, has the effect of persuading precisely no people to their cause.

      But they're the Grown-ups, apparently.
      They can see Hard Brexit being a strong downward pressure on everything else. Unlike McDonnell who reckons everything's fine because "ending austerity".

      Comment


        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
        It's also why the only explanation they can come up with for Labour exceeding expectations in the 2017 general election is that all those re-energised young people could only possibly have been motivated by opposition to Brexit
        Labour did a fair bit better in Remain areas in 2017.

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          They can see Hard Brexit being a strong downward pressure on everything else.
          Some do, but some have never given a fuck about other policies of the past seven years, and don't see the connection between them and the Brexit mess. So it's less than convincing when they complain that hard Brexit will lead to more of the things they never much complained or campaigned about until June 2016.

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            And this shrill judgmentalism, this "everyone's gone mad, where have all the sensible people gone" hectoring is so utterly lacking in self-awareness, in reflection, in subtlety, that prevents them from the sort of critical self-examination needed around June 2016's failure and how to remedy it. It's all someone else's fault, someone invariably less clever than them.

            Comment


              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
              And this shrill judgmentalism, this "everyone's gone mad, where have all the sensible people gone" hectoring is so utterly lacking in self-awareness, in reflection, in subtlety, that prevents them from the sort of critical self-examination needed around June 2016's failure and how to remedy it. It's all someone else's fault, someone invariably less clever than them.
              It's correct though. More people knew about the EU, the more likely they were to vote Remain. I'm not really fussed what somebody with a few thousand twitter followers says. Trump/Brexit is always going to find "elite snobs" looking down on their base, and the base is going to lap it up.

              Comment


                Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                Some do, but some have never given a fuck about other policies of the past seven years, and don't see the connection between them and the Brexit mess. So it's less than convincing when they complain that hard Brexit will lead to more of the things they never much complained or campaigned about until June 2016.
                I certainly heard lots of complaints about the NHS from 2010-17, for starters.

                We might be talking about two different groups of people under the "Jolyons" here. I've got Maugham in mind, who is a wonk sort of bloke who cares a lot about eg assessments of how policies affect various income groups, so see stuff like the Corbyn tuition fees policy as very wasteful. Maybe you and John have Jolyon Green and media professionals in mind. I'm with you much more on them.

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                  You're right. I don't have Maugham in mind – he's an engaged political animal, but certain media professionals definitely, and of course the Lib Dems for whom Brexit has been their "get out of responsibility free" card, something to stress relentlessly in an attempt to waive away their responsibility for the many awful things that happened between 2010 and 2015.

                  In the meantime, a laugh: tomorrow's magnificent Daily Mail front page.

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                    To no great surprise, the Mail produces another wanted poster.

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                      I swear I never heard of the name Jolyon until Brexit. I thought it some made up name till I saw some links to Jolyon Green
                      Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-12-2017, 00:26.

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                        You not a Tintin man?

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                          Great use of "veto" to mean "vote" by the Mail there.

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                            Nah. Asterix was my Gallic comic of choice. Was always disappointing when Glen Michael’s Cartoon Cavalcade had an animated Tintin on 70’s/80’s STV, and not an old Dangermouse.
                            Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-12-2017, 00:19.

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                              Nice to have it officially from the Mail that betraying the Conservative Party is a bad thing in itself. I was naively thinking this was supposed to be about the popular will, albeit crudely.

                              Comment


                                "Newly-confident Tories" and "Marxist in No10" are my favourite bits.

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                                  Ian Colin Taylor‏
                                  @iancolintaylor
                                  Replying to @hendopolis
                                  In other words, thank you great Parliamentarians.
                                  Prior to 2010, he was MP in Dominic Raab's seat. Progress, eh?

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                    "Newly-confident Tories" and "Marxist in No10" are my favourite bits.
                                    Yeah, both good.

                                    David Davis didn't sound all that confident when having to backtrack the other day.

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                                      I'd have thought that "betrayed" 17.4m would be a fairly useful bulwark against May losing the election.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                        Prior to 2010, he was MP in Dominic Raab's seat. Progress, eh?
                                        My wife's uncle, that. Ian Taylor, not Raab C.
                                        Last edited by hobbes; 13-12-2017, 23:55.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                          Nah. Asterix was my Gallic comic of choice. Was always disappointing when Glen Michael’s Cartoon Cavalcade had an animated Tintin on 70’s/80’s STV, and not an old Dangermouse.
                                          You should get yourself a copy of that one:

                                          Comment


                                            Heh, ah’d gie thon there Herge a go afore thon National paper shan onyways, ken!

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                              I think it's a cover for some of them, but there is a certain strain of hardcore Remainer for whom Brexit genuinely is the worst, or indeed only bad, political event that has ever affected them personally in their lifetime, and they literally can't comprehend that it isn't the only thing that matters for everyone else too. So they get completely enraged when Corbyn devotes PMQ time to something trivial like homelessness or the NHS or poverty. It's a charmless tactic and, with Brexit on such a knife edge, has the effect of persuading precisely no people to their cause.

                                              But they're the Grown-ups, apparently.
                                              To be honest, If i was a labour MP I would probably find it difficult to think of literally anything other than brexit. A soft Brexit is going to kill the NHS, and shatter the public provision of services, crater the economy and impoverish up to 10 million extra people. a hard brexit or no deal would see societal collapse and food shortages. I don't mean people eating out of food banks, I mean not enough food getting through customs in a timely manner.

                                              All the other stuff is really important, but the great thing about being a major political party is that you can have people talk about both, and indeed all of the other stuff is crucial to making the point about staying in the EU, because none of that other stuff will matter in a couple of years time. at this point the only reason that you'd be a lexiteer is if you really felt that what the labour movement needed was another fucking Jarrow hunger march. this will make "Austerity" look a golden age if the UK doesn't get its fucking act together.

                                              Ultimately for me, it boils down to the belief that it is easier to achieve positive social and economic progress in an economy that is growing a bit rather than one that suddenly gets meaningfully smaller. And one never improved the life of the poor by destroying the thing that ideally you should be taxing for the benefit of everyone. by now I would be chasing Corbyn, McDonnell and starmer around with a hammer shouting at them to get their fucking act together.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                                                For God's sake man listen to yourself. At worst Boulton is guilty in this case of being offhand, and it's rich for you of all people to gurn about anyone stereotyping Irish people. If he annoys you don't watch his show. If anything is moronic here it's the abuse he's taking in below the line comments on Twitter etc- which you aren't just condoning but adding to.
                                                I think you should read that again. For someone who is trying to get out of a row with people who were mostly pissed off that he seemed to be basically was blaming us for getting in the way of a smooth brexit because of our troublesome quarrelsome ways, saying well saying "You Irish" is really not going to take him where he wants to go. It's like a red rag to a bull, precisely for the reasons I outlined above. I don't get how this is supposed to be hypocritical, I'm just explaining why his twitter feed lit up like downtown baghdad, and he started trending on twitter.

                                                The thing is, that people still think this fucking stupid way, goes an awful long way to explaining why we're fucking having to deal with the Shitnami of Brexit in the first place. It's why nobody even mentioned the North in the fucking brexit referendum. and we know that when people figure out that the good friday agreement means you can't leave the single Market, then there's a fucking avalanche of this kind of stupidity coming our way.

                                                It's the kind of offhand that would be a good way to start a fight in a pub.

                                                Boulton didn't say "You Irish" on his show, he said it online. And it's a clumsy expression, at best. Berba isn't the only one who found it wince-inducing. Lots of people over here did, if the reaction online is anything to go by. I can't imagine someone like Jeremy Bowen or Orla Guerin ever saying it, put it that way.

                                                You mean Orla Guerin from Dublin?

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                                                  TAB speaks for me. Austerity is nothing on the pain thatBrexit will cause. Current cuts to the NHS are nothing compared to the cuts coming to all public services when the economy is 20% smaller than it would have been without Brexit. No matter who is in power, the destruction that’s coming is worse.

                                                  Unless your goal is a peasants revolt as a result of decades if extreme poverty, there is no argument for Lexit.

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                                                    For some reason the Brexiteers have been deluded into believing that this 20% reduction just won't happen, despite the govt's own projections.

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