Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Brexit Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

    Can't see that happening.

    Comment


      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

      @BritainElects

      Perception on who needs whom more:

      UK needs EU more 19%
      EU needs UK more 34%
      Need each other equally 28%

      It's stats like that which remind one of Britain's literal insularity.

      Comment


        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

        Jez doesnt like the idea of tax haven Britain. But he's going to whip Labour to vote for it. No Labour wanted tax haven Britain. Not one. He didn't even have to make a decision today.

        Let him, his sidekicks, and Kipper Labour stand together. Everyone else should rebel and kick him out.

        Comment


          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

          Clive Lewis in a tank in Walworth Road.

          Comment


            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

            Espanyol's fanbase is as much snooty upper-middle-class Catalans as anything else from what I have been told. Their traditional home was in the Sarria, which is quite chi-chi and they were founded by Catalan University of Barcelona students (hence their name, they were the first football club founded by Spanish people).

            Lang Spoon wrote:
            NZ will be the worst place in the world to conduct a trade deal with, seeing as they pretty much only have agri stuff to offer the UK, and they will be in no hurry to open their market up to UK agriculture without a reciprocal lack of subsidy to the UK's proud farmers/leeches on the State. And they are fucking miles away, they will never replace Ireland as an agricultural importer to the UK (outside their cheap frozen sheeps).

            I really enjoyed Brilliant Orange at the time, but the abject bollocks of everything else I've read by Winner makes me think I shouldn't revisit it. See also Kuper, Simon.
            Geoffrey, if he ever sees this, can hand down a judgment, but I've always found Winner far more knowledgable about Dutch football than Kuper. You can explain Total Football using polders is a weak thesis, but it's no worse than "Bert van Marwijk is Geert Wilders with boots" and the nuts and bolts of the book are good. And Kuper's book on Ajax was hugely disappointing.

            Just read this paragraph from Kuper:

            Everyone playing or coaching in the Netherlands in the 1970s and 1980s, from Dennis Bergkamp to Louis van Gaal (though he'd never admit it), studied at Cruyff's feet. Cruyff is the father of Dutch soccer. He made everything in it, the good but also the bad.
            Cripes, there's at least two howlers there.

            Comment


              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

              I liked lots in the Winner book, looked like good social history. Was just having a laugh at one pretentious bit I recalled as a tangent to our discussion.

              But anyway, if Geoffrey wants to write it, I'll enjoy reading it.

              Comment


                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                Where else would such an issue bring down the government?

                It didn't bring it down in the North Either. The northern Government was brought down over arlene foster's refusal to step aside and be investigated over a massive balls up/naked fraud

                And The shape, contents, effectiveness or cost of the Irish language bill is irrelevant to the current row. The only thing about it that is relevant is that the DUP refuses to implement a part of the st Andrews agreement. Any discussion of what the bill is actually about simply distracts attention from the key problem, which is that the DUP are moronic petty minded bigots who refuse to implement agreements that they have signed up to, at the cost of being able to carry on a proper devolved government.

                Fuck the lot of them and their dead end culture. How long can they carry on with a culture based exclusively around pissing off catholics? How are they going to react when it becomes clearer and clearer to them over time that the North is finished.

                Comment


                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                  Jez abandons the three-line whip he said he'd impose earlier today.

                  No decision had been made.

                  Comment


                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                    Tubby Isaacs wrote: Jez doesnt like the idea of tax haven Britain. But he's going to whip Labour to vote for it. No Labour wanted tax haven Britain. Not one. He didn't even have to make a decision today.

                    Let him, his sidekicks, and Kipper Labour stand together. Everyone else should rebel and kick him out.
                    But he's not whipping them to vote for tax haven Britain, today was about Article 50 - the argument about tax haven Britain comes later.

                    I don't think a rebellion would be a good idea; we'd spend months debating another leader, Article 50 will go through anyway, and then where will we - Labour, the country - be?

                    Comment


                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                      I can see no possible reason for not opposing Article 50. Corbyn, Starmer and the cluster of stop immigration labour from Caroline" too many none white people in my constituency" Flint to...

                      It's too fucking depressing... Fuck the lot of them. I've got German citizenship now.

                      Comment


                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                        I can see a reason for not opposing Art 50, something along the lines of 'the people voted, there were lies on both sides blah blah, there's no point in saying 'we can't let Art 50 be invoked cos it's gonna be shit - we need to show how it'll be shit throughout the next two years, then vote the substantive stuff out the window at the end - and by which time the rest of the public will agree with us, cos they'll be much more informed and see how shit it is by then. And May will fall too'.

                        I'm aware that that/I appear(s) possibly naively optimistic; I guess I also don't see the point of having the argument over again; leaving the EU meant invoking Article 50 at some point, and that's what we - they - voted for.

                        To counter my optimism, I've been having an e-mail exchange with my cousin about all this, and pointed him to that link of E10's on page 6. His response, I think, would chime with a lot on here, and even given the above I find it pretty persuasive (I've tried to persuade him to contribute on here, but he doesn't like football...and anyway, the way the site is these days...)

                        'With regard to Corbyn, I agree that this shitfest is not of his making, and he can't be held solely responsible for the shambles that is the PLP at the moment, but it's disingenuous to ignore his (and McDonut's) obvious ambivalence towards the EU. I strongly disagree with the author that the May plan will be contractual rather than catastrophic, and I'm not being glib. I sincerely believe we'll see economic decline at an unprecedented rate.

                        The wider plan is becoming ever clearer. The lunatic Right are closer to securing their ultimate dream - a completely de-regulated, off-shore tax haven; a casino economy where international capital can flow and prosper with minimal political and legal interference (those fucking Eton-educated socialist enemies of the people). 1950s Cuba re-invented for 21st century global capital. Europe's uber-brothel.

                        The peculiarities of Britains class-based, polarised society allied to our brittle governmental/constitutional set-up make us a soft target, once we're prised away from the legal and constitutional umbrella of the EU, and especially whilst public acquiescence and discipline is being enforced by severe economic recession. Redwood et al must be wetting themselves.

                        In the Kafkaesque fucking Bizzaro world that we currently find ourselves, the LibDems are the only English party making any sense. Strange times indeed, but the message can be right regardless of whether or not the messenger is generally a fuckwit. The response of the Left has been depressing in the extreme. I'm on the Labour Party and Momentum's mailing lists, and constantly receiving emails. They barely ever even mention Brexit, let alone a policy or strategy (coherent or otherwise). Momentum in particular seem to be in denial. I don't know if that's because they're paralyzed by indecision/electoral angst, or because they buy into this shite narrative that the EU is an anti-democratic neo-con plot ......blah, blah. If so, they need to sort themselves out. You'd think a good butcher's at their fellow travellers would ring some alarm bells there.

                        Anyhow, better wrap-up. Labour has to do what's right, or they're finished for good. They ain't gonna win the next election regardless. If they're going to remain the main opposition, they've got to fight Brexit tooth and nail. Jezza and Donut aren't the men for the job, as discussed earlier. What happens next is more important than how the Labour Party fares. I don't think the Left are grasping the magnitude of what's occurring here. Brexit's just a staging post.'

                        Comment


                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                          I can see a reason for not opposing Art 50, something along the lines of 'the people voted, there were lies on both sides blah blah, there's no point in saying 'we can't let Art 50 be invoked cos it's gonna be shit - we need to show how it'll be shit throughout the next two years, then vote the substantive stuff out the window at the end - and by which time the rest of the public will agree with us, cos they'll be much more informed and see how shit it is by then. And May will fall too'.
                          So MPs should vote for the course of action most likely to have the most catastrophic effects? "Voting the substantive stuff out the window at the end" means the hardest of hard Brexits. Immediate fallback (or attempted fallback, really) on WTO rules with no transition and no long term arrangements in place. It would be utter chaos. May knows it, which is why she's pushing this line now, because MPs will be over a barrel when the ultimate vote comes..

                          Comment


                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                            Agree with most of your cousin. -
                            Don't forget the Greens though- who didn't prop up the Cameron Government that called the fucking referendum

                            Comment


                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                              johnr wrote:
                              Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                              Jez doesnt like the idea of tax haven Britain. But he's going to whip Labour to vote for it. No Labour wanted tax haven Britain. Not one. He didn't even have to make a decision today.

                              Let him, his sidekicks, and Kipper Labour stand together. Everyone else should rebel and kick him out.
                              But he's not whipping them to vote for tax haven Britain, today was about Article 50 - the argument about tax haven Britain comes later.

                              I don't think a rebellion would be a good idea; we'd spend months debating another leader, Article 50 will go throu anyway, and then where will we - Labour, the country - be?
                              He's had to row back on it. Clive Lewis- there's a big improvement and popular with members alternative right there- said Corbyn was wrong. As did Catherine West.

                              Labour were poor before (not just Corbyn by any means) but they got some traction with their need for a plan. The plan was delivered (ie a speech), and it was appalling. I think if Labour votes for Article 50 before seeing something much better. it's endorsing the plan.

                              I know how it could look, but I think longer term, "We warned you about this clusterfuck, we voted against it" is positive. "Customs Union" isn't a very good position at all, but it's Labour's position, it's different to May's and better, and covers the "Very Real Concerns" about immigration.

                              I think there's a position Labour can hold there.

                              Comment


                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                Nefertiti2 wrote: Agree with most of your cousin. -
                                Don't forget the Greens though- who didn't prop up the Cameron Government that called the fucking referendum
                                The Greens were pro-referendum. They went along with all the "unaccountable neoliberals in Brussels" easy stuff without doing the (to my mind, equally easy but less flashy) stuff about what leaving actually means. I think this gave cross party gloss to the Kipper project.

                                Comment


                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                  Even people like Flint should be able to unite around the Customs Union position. It involves taking very seriously those concerns expressed to her.

                                  Comment


                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                    I don't think Lewis got Corbyn to row back, I think it was another one of those Corbyn lack of clarity moments.

                                    I've said elsewhere that I like Lewis a lot (and I think there's a reasonable chance that he'll be Lab leader by the next GE). Though he was incredibly wrong about the whole 'progressive alliance' thing.

                                    Comment


                                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                      If not Lewis, somebody else close to him probably had a word.

                                      In nuts and bolts, bread and butter leadership, Corbyn is as bad as I can remember anyone. Why is he blurting stuff out in TV studios? Who is briefing him? Is he even rehearsing interviews?

                                      Agree about the Progressive Alliance. It's a possibility longer term. But for now, everybody sticks up a candidate and the public can do tactical voting if they want. They did it v Goldsmith. I know of somebody who did it in Rochester and Strood (for a fairly average Tory, and against Kipper Mark Reckless). I think the public will do it in Stoke Central if they think it'll be close, and keep Paul Nuttall out.

                                      Comment


                                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                        Jez thinks Seumas Milne has done so well, he''s given him a permanent job.

                                        Just last week he contradicted the Shadow Foreign Secretary and Defence Secretary on core brief subjects.

                                        Comment


                                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                          Bit naughty of The Guardian to say Corbyn's calling for a 3 line whip- when the direct quotes from him say nothing of the kind.

                                          What's apparent though is that this is the end of the Labour party. If he did call a three line whip no-one would take any notice, and I can't see what sanctions he would have- withdraw the whip?

                                          Comment


                                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                            Nefertiti2 wrote: Bit naughty of The Guardian to say Corbyn's calling for a 3 line whip- when the direct quotes from him say nothing of the kind.

                                            What's apparent though is that this is the end of the Labour party.
                                            It's nothing of the kind of course.

                                            Comment


                                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                              Paul Mason has a bunch of tweets which are close to where I'm at - though he's maybe more optinistic than me that Labour might vote the final deal down.

                                              Comment


                                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                “I’ve made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.”

                                                When asked if that meant a three-line whip, an order to MPs to vote for the bill, he replied: “It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.”
                                                True, three-line whip was in the question, not the (non) answer. But you'd surely infer something being stated by the leader as "respecting the will of the British people" (which it fucking isn't) would be whipped strongly.

                                                Not too mischievous really by the Guardian.

                                                Comment


                                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                  Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                                                  “I’ve made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.”

                                                  When asked if that meant a three-line whip, an order to MPs to vote for the bill, he replied: “It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.”
                                                  True, three-line whip was in the question, not the (non) answer. But you'd surely infer something being stated by the leader as "respecting the will of the British people" (which it fucking isn't) would be whipped strongly.

                                                  Not too mischievous really by the Guardian.
                                                  If you're the Guardian & you're trying to make Corbyn look as bad as possible , then you would, yes.

                                                  A decent journalist would not "infer" they'd just print the response.

                                                  Johnr I don't see how it can be resolved- the split between the PLP -the left Remainers & the pre Brexit brigade -given the split in the Labour vote too. Who gets the properties & who gets what seats remain.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                    "Corbyn says his MPs must not vote against May on Article 50 because that's pissing in the face of the public, and he'll ask MPs not to do it. He got evasive when asked about a 3 line whip".

                                                    The latest headline says "order", no mention of 3 line whip.

                                                    Remember this bloke sold himself as specially honest and straight talking. When I saw that, I thought it was a mistake. It now reminds me of Back To Basics.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X