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    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

    johnr wrote: Paul Mason has a bunch of tweets which are close to where I'm at - though he's maybe more optinistic than me that Labour might vote the final deal down.
    Yeah, it might, but it's going to struggle to compete on "we'd have got a better deal". The Tories tend to kill them on "best at fighting for a deal in Europe".

    Voting against May setting out on this course (absolutely openly) is a big, easily memorable "we told you so".

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      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

      May tells the Davos crowd to remember the ordinary folk, who will of course be the first to benefit from the new deregulated, low tax UK Global economy.

      You can see why she generally avoids speeches. Her sneery, patronising manner is remarkably off-putting.

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        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

        "Corbyn considering 3 line whip against opponents of May on Article 50".

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          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

          That said, can't imagine the damage will be terminal, given the constituency-level weakness of the Lib Dems at present, and the Greens are even less prepared, so the biggest worry would seem to be redundant Kippers flocking en masse to the Tories.

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            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

            55% said in a poll her 'plan' would be good for the country. The Brexit train is going full steam ahead....

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              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

              Today's shit aint getting better for Corbyn. From November:

              https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/05/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-brexit-bottom-line-article-50-early-election

              Labour will only let Theresa May trigger the process for leaving the European Union if she agrees to the party’s “Brexit bottom line”, Jeremy Corbyn has said in an interview.

              The opposition will join forces with Conservative remain supporters and other parties to block article 50 if the prime minister does not guarantee access to the single market, the Labour leader told the Sunday Mirror.

              The paper said that Corbyn’s four bottom lines were:

              UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
              No watering down of EU workplace rights.
              Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
              A promise that Britain will pick up the tab for any EU capital investment lost as a result of Brexit.

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                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                johnr wrote:
                Originally posted by Nefertiti2
                Bit naughty of The Guardian to say Corbyn's calling for a 3 line whip- when the direct quotes from him say nothing of the kind.

                What's apparent though is that this is the end of the Labour party.
                It's nothing of the kind of course.
                Just to expand slightly, the reason I say that is because the Labour Party is the largest party of its kind in Europe. Things aren't going to change quickly - I've said before that I (and from my conversation with Labour's Leader in the Lords - none of the top brass) think that Labour's got any hope of a majority in 2020. We're looking longer than that, and that gives us time to change the make up of the party, gradually change the MPs (no 'deselections') and end up with a better party. I think Corbyn knows that. Momentum do, that's why they formed.

                Soz, wrong thread really.

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                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                  1975- British people spoke, 66% in

                  1983- Corbyn- out! No referendum.

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                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                    Fuck I almost wish Gareth Cheeseman had beaten Corbyn now. Labour must die for Labour to be reborn.

                    Massively off topic to Flynnie: aye I was simplifying wildly re Espanyol and the Catala/Castellano ethnic tension. But the move to the bleak suburbs near the airport probably fits their current fan base more than being in Pijo Sarria. Also, they were pointedly named Español on their creation at a time when Gaudi refused to speak Espanish when he met the King.

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                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                      Lang Spoon wrote: Fuck I almost wish Gareth Cheeseman had beaten Corbyn now. Labour must die for Labour to be reborn.
                      One side of the party you;ve got Corbyn and his alleged three line whip.

                      On the other you've got Dan Jarvis calling for them to be tougher on immigration.

                      In the middle, you've got people like me going "for fucks sake".

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                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                        Lang Spoon wrote: Fuck I almost wish Gareth Cheeseman had beaten Corbyn now. Labour must die for Labour to be reborn.

                        Massively off topic to Flynnie: aye I was simplifying wildly re Espanyol and the Catala/Castellano ethnic tension. But the move to the bleak suburbs near the airport probably fits their current fan base more than being in Pijo Sarria. Also, they were pointedly named Español on their creation at a time when Gaudi refused to speak Espanish when he met the King.
                        Do catalans do the lisping thing? and do basques? Because that lisp is the sort of thing that would make me move to argentina before I blew up that fucking huge flag.

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                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                          Johnr - I totally used to buy that argument too, but since Brexit, can't help feeling the tectonic plates have shifted, and that longer game for socialism sacrifices too much very important shit in the ten years we wait for the penny/shoe to drop.

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                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                            The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:
                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon
                            Fuck I almost wish Gareth Cheeseman had beaten Corbyn now. Labour must die for Labour to be reborn.

                            Massively off topic to Flynnie: aye I was simplifying wildly re Espanyol and the Catala/Castellano ethnic tension. But the move to the bleak suburbs near the airport probably fits their current fan base more than being in Pijo Sarria. Also, they were pointedly named Español on their creation at a time when Gaudi refused to speak Espanish when he met the King.
                            Do catalans do the lisping thing? and do basques? Because that lisp is the sort of thing that would make me move to argentina before I blew up that fucking huge flag.
                            Not much lisping down Catalunya way (except maybe some Barris) and my Basque mates here at least never really lisp even when going Castellano ten to the dozen.

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                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                              Brexit- no longer the nation. Now the Tory Government.



                              Wasn't Corbyn supposed to have his ear to the ground among Labour voters, especially the left behind? Not even us "metropolitan elite" can weight the figures that much. Heartlands, where there must have been a fair few Labour Remainers anyway (Kippers and Tories would have been proportionately more Leave, surely), must be moving against Brexit.

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                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                Or those who voted Labour in 2015 and are Brexit-sympathetic (was that about a third of them?) have now changed their voting intention to Tory/UKIP?

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                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                  Tubby Isaacs wrote: Brexit- no longer the nation. Now the Tory Government.



                                  Wasn't Corbyn supposed to have his ear to the ground among Labour voters, especially the left behind? Not even us "metropolitan elite" can weight the figures that much. Heartlands, where there must have been a fair few Labour Remainers anyway (Kippers and Tories would have been proportionately more Leave, surely), must be moving against Brexit.
                                  Two bit journalists keep coming up with the stat about X number of 'Labour constituencies' voting Brexit. They fail to understand that a multi-party FPTP system is different to a referendum with two possible outcomes.

                                  A 'Labour constituency' could be where 40% is enough to return a Labour MP in a FPTP Westminster election. In the Brexit referendum, all of the Labour voters in the constituency could vote Remain, but if the other 60% constituents vote Leave, then the constituency is a Leave constituency with a Labour MP. That doesn't mean the Labour MP has to pivot to Brexit to save his/her seat.

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                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                    Did I miss where on that graphic it says what percentage intend to vote for each party?

                                    PS related to AP's point: in the 2015 GE, 50% of the turnout voted for the winner in their seat.

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                                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                      The Lib Dems need to go after those 23% of Tories who wanted to stay in the EU.

                                      Labour needs to go after Labour voters and stop courting UKIP. The message is simple: The Tories want out of the EU because they want the UK to lead the race to the bottom.

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                                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                        Duncan Gardner wrote: Did I miss where on that graphic it says what percentage intend to vote for each party?

                                        PS related to AP's point: in the 2015 GE, 50% of the turnout voted for the winner in their seat.
                                        No, why not represent the voters you have? Piss them about, you're likely to have even fewer.

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                                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                          There's also been the assumption that these Labour constituencies are full of people who put EU membership above everything.

                                          Leave won my adopted borough handily. Labour (Ed Miliband liberal elite, proper opposition from Plaid Cymru, UKIP and all) still got way over double any other party in my seat. And won the Welsh Assembly seat easily.

                                          The threat to them isn't the referendum, it's Corbyn.

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                                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                            Ha ha.

                                            https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/20/project-fear-brexit-predictions-tough-economy

                                            About a week after he did "economic forecasters are idiots", Simon Jenkins does "those economic forecasters have got inflation right".

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                                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                              Oh dear.

                                              http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/nissan-boss-carlos-ghosn-admits-uk-investment-will-be-reviewed-a7537586.html

                                              Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn says UK investment to be 're-evaluated' if Theresa May delivers poor Brexit deal
                                              The pledge came despite last October's high-profile commitment by Nissan to build its next Qashqai and X-Trail model in Sunderland
                                              Labour's got "tax haven Brexit", a Foreign Secretary pissing about, and now Nissan saying they aren't satisfied yet. But immigration.

                                              And Corbyn, who thinks corporate freebies are great, proper industrial policy. Except when he's saying corporate freebies are bad, of course.

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                                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:
                                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon
                                                Fuck I almost wish Gareth Cheeseman had beaten Corbyn now. Labour must die for Labour to be reborn.

                                                Massively off topic to Flynnie: aye I was simplifying wildly re Espanyol and the Catala/Castellano ethnic tension. But the move to the bleak suburbs near the airport probably fits their current fan base more than being in Pijo Sarria. Also, they were pointedly named Español on their creation at a time when Gaudi refused to speak Espanish when he met the King.
                                                Do catalans do the lisping thing? and do basques? Because that lisp is the sort of thing that would make me move to argentina before I blew up that fucking huge flag.
                                                They do, but (as Lang Spoon pointed out on the previous page) not very noticeably compared with other bits of Spain (well, central bits - I didn't hear any lisping at all in most of Andalusia). But Argentina wouldn't be your only option; Latin Americans as a whole don't lisp their 'c's and 'z's. They also don't hack up a massive ball of phlegm every time a 'j' comes over the speech horizon, which is my personal least favourite thing about 'the Spanish accent'.

                                                Oh and in Latin America we have one fewer form of 'you' to worry about (we don't distinguish between the formal plural you and the informal plural you here, it's all just ustedes).

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                                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                  Wouldn't always agree with AP but his assessment up the page is absolutely spot on.

                                                  And for those whining about Corbyn, he's been elected by his own party members twice in landslides, as I suggested unless D.Milibland steps forth, there are no other credible candidates imminently available from the current intake.

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                                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                    Hilarious. Blokes who put politics of Brexit above economic pragmatism can't believe Germans might... put politics of the EU above economic pragmatism.

                                                    The German economy will pay a "high price" if its leaders make life hard for the UK over Brexit, British pro-Leave campaigners are to warn.
                                                    John Longworth, co-chair of Leave means Leave, and ex-minister Owen Paterson will sound the warning at a major German business event on Saturday.
                                                    Britain will "walk away" if the deal is not right, Mr Longworth will say.

                                                    Theresa May has said it will be an act of "calamitous self-harm" for the EU to try and punish the UK for leaving.

                                                    The prime minister has said she wants the UK and the EU to be "good neighbours" in a constructive, new partnership after Brexit.
                                                    But she has warned that no deal will be better than a bad deal at the end of two years of negotiations - which are expected to start in April.

                                                    Mr Longworth, former British Chamber of Commerce director general, will echo these views at the Berlin event - attended by German ministers, business, academia and media.
                                                    "It is entirely sensible for businesses across the EU and Britain who wish to work and trade together to continue to do so and it would be helpful if the British and German governments, as well as key figures in the EU, work towards this goal," he will say.

                                                    "If the German Chancellor and EU leaders continue down the road of negativity and threats when negotiating with Britain, German business and the German economy will pay a high price."

                                                    He will warn German businesses that the UK will revert back to World Trade Organisation rules "with ease" if it offers a bad deal.
                                                    He will suggest that the government could simply "compensate" business for any tariffs that are imposed on goods and services as a result.
                                                    Another sighting of the UK government possibly handing out corporate freebies there.

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