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    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

    What was Labour's take on brexit again?
    To do a deal and put it to a second referendum next to "Do not leave".

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      I just don't see how such an inconsequential group can be carrying the can for looming hard brexit when we had an oven ready deal.

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        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
        I just don't see how such an inconsequential group can be carrying the can for looming hard brexit when we had an oven ready deal.
        Because they had numerous opportunities to stop it in 2019 and not only didn't take any of them, they bulldozed and tarmaced the road for Johnson to bullshit his way down. The Tories had no majority, it was literally down to giving Johnson his election or potentially Stopping Brexit - and they chose the former.

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          I think I'm missing the point somewhere and tbh I'm too fucking tired to try and get it.

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            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
            Who are these Hard Remainers? Handy strawmen imo.
            Erm... How could anyone be a "Hard Remainer"? "Remain" was a purely binary option? We either "Remained" or we didn't, how can it be hard, soft or any other kind of remain other than, you know, remaining in the EU?

            (This is, obviously, aimed at Owen Jones not PT)

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              Originally posted by pebblethefish View Post
              A headline appeared on my screen a few minutes ago (how do you stop them appearing? They're like cockroaches) quoting a minister saying that "Britain holds all the cards in the negotiations". Well, that's nice. And if you are the one with all the cards, then you are meant to start Dealing them. You are, in fact, the Dealer.

              So fucking get on with it.
              Holding all the cards, but not realising they're playing Uno.

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                Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                Owen Jones claiming that "hard remainers" are to blame for the failure to achieve a "soft" Brexit, and as ever far, he is both right and wrong in his claim. On the one hand, there was at one point a majority for a customs union, which would have been softer than the present scenario (that is, if the Tories decided to honour such a vote), but on the other, most of the benefits of EU membership that could have preserved derive from the Single Mark, and that never came close to a majority.
                I've got a lot of time for Jones, but I don't really understand this "Hard Remainer" thing either. I'd consider myself a Hard Remainer - I certainly cheered every time one of May's deals failed to get through parliament. Does that make me to blame for what's happening now?

                (The People's Vote lot were just annoying though.)
                Last edited by Jimski; 07-12-2020, 17:10.

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                  The "hard remainers" are those (like the Lib Dems and Change Uk) who favoured opposing all forms of Brexit rather than Norway plus, and opposed staying in the single market and the customs union when they were on offer. There's an argument that their obduracy - and their refusal to do any kind of business with Jeremy Corbyn - led inevitably to the situation we are in today

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                    The trouble is I think that the 48% or whatever of people who voted against Brexit had a reasonable right to have their position represented in parliament. I certainly have difficulty myself in arguing for any sort of Brexit as a good thing. The closer a deal gets get to staying in the EU, the more easily you see how foolish it is not just to stay in.

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                      Norway plus would certainly have been suboptimal. The current situation is considerably worse than that. The refusal to compromise or negotiate reminds me of Johnson and co.

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                        I'm not sure there was anyone with whom to negotiate though.

                        (I guess you're thinking of the Ken Clarke vote, which is a fair point. I was very much in two minds about that one though. Again clearly worse than the status quo. I still had hope we could keep kicking the can down the road until something changed. As it was, it did change, but the wrong way, sadly.)
                        Last edited by Jimski; 07-12-2020, 18:36.

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                          She’s at it again

                          https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1335980964346998788?s=21

                          Jimski , Which is now moving relentlessly towards an outcome that probably 15 or 20% of the people wanted at most. And nobody knew what they were talking abouti think it would have stopped the ERG runaway train

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                            this is quite a read

                            https://twitter.com/JGiftmacher/status/1292033011853283334?s=20

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                              Coventry increasingly pessimistic.

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                                I knew that when Brexit turned into a colossal fuck up it was all going to be the fault of the Remainers. It won't matter that Johnson has had an entire year to get his oven ready deal in place. It won't matter that everything labelled "Project Fear" has pretty much come to pass as predicted.so nobody can honestly say they weren't warned. No, it's all those meanie "hard remainers". Let's pursue them with pitchforks and torches.

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                                  ...and Parliament has voted through amendments which break international law.

                                  There is no way, and no reason why, anyone will take this country seriously ever again. Fuck me, I want off this shitty fucking island.

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                                    I’ve always said that the best defence against reality is waving a printed piece of paper at it.

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                                      Johnson dearly wants to be Churchill, but is going to be Chamberlain.

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                                        Originally posted by Toby Gymshorts View Post
                                        Johnson dearly wants to be Churchill, but is going to be Chamberlain.
                                        Hopefully he'll end up like his Ottoman great grandfather, lynched as a traitor.

                                        By lynched I mean literally not metaphorically or the other way round.

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                                          The Irish Question has been answered.

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                                            Who saw this coming?

                                            https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1336333265045635072

                                            (Everyone.)

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                                              Huh. Didn't realise Ineos made cars. Seems a weird sideline for a chemicals company.

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                                                I get the feeling that he wants to become the UK Bezos.

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                                                  Monaco Bezos, you mean.

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                                                    I just hope that this doesn't detract from the feelgood buzz around the cycling team.

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