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    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post

    I don't understand that at all. He's betraying the Remainers who are trying to get the extension. There would be no point in the opposition voting against the deal because then they'd get No Deal.

    It's a fucking huge betrayal, truly. We are fucked.
    Surely to be a betrayal they have to be on your side to begin with.

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      Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
      Juncker doesn't get to decide. I assume he's just trying to put pressure on Parliament.
      But if Johnson takes the illegal route of not asking for an extension, he'll use Juncker's statement in his defence and the press and BBC will swallow it.

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        It's not much different from what he was saying before May's deal. Obviously the EU want this sorted, and they want parliament to pass the deal. And Junker is hoping that this will help do this. But I don't believe that if (say) parliament only passed the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum that the EU would say no.

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          I think that is right.

          I also think that it isn't productive to criticise Juncker (or anyone else) for giving the Brexiteer press ammunition, as it has long been established that they will say whatever they want to notwithstanding the facts of the underlying situation and that their core support has no interest in such facts (this is very similar to the situation here with regard to Trump's "base")

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            Very good points; I retract the above.

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              For those interested in the legal side, here's a blackline.

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                I think the last think the EU needs is another Orbanist regime with strong links to Oligarchs and the AfD on its border

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                  [URL]https://twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1184935854814437376?s=21[/URL]

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                    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1184945465810472960?s=20

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                      Stupid fucking failed state.

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                        We're being railroaded into something.All the classic techniques of the con man.


                        https://twitter.com/mrchrisaddison/status/1184807458939817984?s=20

                        but what

                        https://twitter.com/brendanjharkin/status/1184877159606816768?s=20

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                          This deal will get through

                          Johnson will call and win an election.

                          Slash and burn.

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                            Sadly I believe that you're right.

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                              If the deal passes, nothing will change until 31.12.20. A lot can happen until then and the extension can be extended...

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                                Originally posted by Eggchaser View Post
                                This deal will get through

                                Johnson will call and win an election.

                                Slash and burn.
                                Doesn't he need two thirds of MPs agreeing to this though?

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View Post
                                  If the deal passes, nothing will change until 31.12.20. A lot can happen until then and the extension can be extended...
                                  In theory, but things will actually change. The UK will not be a member state any more, even if it will be treated as one for most purposes. I don't think the transition, once in place, could be extended without a treaty change, but even if not it's not just a question of an Article 50 extension. It would need new primary legislation at a minimum.

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                                    There was a provision to extend in earlier WA i remember but obviously it would need action from the UK to trigger it.

                                    No FTA will be ready for 31.12.20, it will depend how quiet a Premiership Johnson wishes to have because we would be back to the no deal scenario then if no extension of the transition.

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                                      I think it's about how much work people are prepared to put in. If everyone votes for the opponent with the best chance of beating the Tories-and the Lib Dems behave- the Johnson can be defeated.

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                                        Who could ever have foreseen that Boris Johnson could have managed to pull off a deal, by..... caving on everything and giving the EU everything they asked for in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. He went in there and at the last minute he achieved ultimate victory by surrendering completely. In fairness to him, he thought he could pull it off and no-one believed he could do it, but he went in there and surrendered, bent the knee, doffed the cap, laid him prostrate on the ground, and horrified everyone by offering up his children as a sacrifice. What a fucking winner.

                                        All that was required for Johnson to be able to pull off this deal was for him to be in charge. I find myself reminded of how Ian paisley destroyed all of his opponents who even suggested that Catholics were people, until he was in charge, and then him and wee marty were off doing decades of the rosary around Rome, laughing at how everyone had been fooled by the pair of them, and stealing passionate kisses on the spanish steps.

                                        Surrender is victory, completely changing everything you claimed to stand for is being steadfast and indomitable, and he's going to get away with it because everyone opposing him is craven, and ignorant. All this took was for him to stab the DUP in the face and the back simultaneously.

                                        Thank god the opposition is there to hold him to account with their clear understanding of what is going on, and their unstinting mission to explain how everything works to everyone. I'm sure they've got this, like they had everything else up to this point.

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                                          Yawn...

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                                            Special thanks to Jo Swnson for making sure Johnson was in charge.
                                            also to the bbc for taking him seriously

                                            love to see Berbaslug blame Corbyn again.

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                                              Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View Post
                                              There was a provision to extend in earlier WA i remember but obviously it would need action from the UK to trigger it.

                                              No FTA will be ready for 31.12.20, it will depend how quiet a Premiership Johnson wishes to have because we would be back to the no deal scenario then if no extension of the transition.
                                              Ah, yes, I'd forgotten, there's a possibility for a limited extension of up to two years, but a) it has to be triggered by 1 July, and b) it takes a decision of the Joint Committee. Anyway, point being, once the agreement is signed, we leave and we can't keep kicking the can down the road forever. And if we get past 1 July, there's no can kicking at all.

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                                                What happens if the deal goes through but then Labour wins the General Election? Is there a referendum to rejoin?

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                                                  There seems to be very little appetite for that.

                                                  Instead I would expect the FTA negotiations to focus on workers' rights, consumer protection and the environment, rather than facilitating the Tories' dismantling of same outside of the Union.

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                                                    Yes, and in some ways this deal does Corbyn a favour because I think he would like to fight a GE on those issues not a 2nd referendum or withdrawal of Article 50. But OTOH it's going to be very difficult to overcome the Johnson bounce from "I got us out of the EU by Oct 31 as promised" (even though in reality they are only half out, if that, and he sold out the DUP and some of his own previous red lines to do it)

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