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    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
    Having an actual, written constitution would come in handy now.
    Yes, but only a few centuries too late.

    Which is why the loathsome Brit Establishment never did it.

    Comment


      Mind you the American one has proven itself to be utterly fucking useless lately.

      Comment


        Originally posted by TonTon View Post
        Am I having to remind people that a vote in the Commons in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement alone would have absolutely zero effect in UK law?
        There's no nice way of saying this, but not even Toro-toro would indulge in this level of pointless pedantry. You are correct, as long as the people who voted for a withdrawal agreement, then failed to vote for the procedural bits and pieces required to pass a bill. But that's sort of implied in saying that you vote for the withdrawal agreement.

        Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
        It may not be hard to understand, but it is hard to reconcile with the fact that emerged from months of negotiation
        That wasn't a negotiation. The Withdrawal agreement was exactly what the EU said it was going to be. It took the UK govt quite a while to come to terms with that. The parliament never did. The problem was that it was presented as a negotiation that the UK was frequently winning.

        Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
        So the withdrawal agreement was negotiated with full input from the Labour party and wasn't drawn up to try and protect the coalition with the DUP.
        The Tories barely had any fucking input into it. It's not that stage of the process. The DUP fucking hate it. A labour 'negotiated' withdrawal agreement would be the same thing. The Withdrawal agreement is clearly not what you think it is. The Withdrawal agreement is just the stage in this process, where the UK has to pay its bills and give the required cast iron legal guarantees necessary to remain compliant with their treaty obligations. There's no real negotiation involved. The UK agreed to all of these things years ago. You have to accept this. You also have to make room in your world view for the uncomfortable fact, that Labour's strategy of voting against the withdrawal agreement, and opposing a second referendum, was in effect a No-Deal Strategy. You may not like it, but it is objectively true. Subsequent changes of course are welcome, but No-Deal couldn't have happened without the active involvement of the labour party.

        Now You're not going to like hearing that. But unfortunately it is true, and you should have a think about that, and what it means. Aaron Bastani is telling a really massive lie in that tweet. It may feel good to direct your anger against the faction that you don't like, but that tweet is massively dishonest in a way that should fundamentally affect how you think about him in future.

        Comment


          That's over-egged, E10.

          Even with them having packed the courts with ideologues, it has given us marriage equality, saved Obamacare, significantly hamprered the Muslim ban, slowed the most extreme moves on gerrymandering and voter suppression and stopped some of ICE's most horrific overreaches. It also will serve as a bulwark against the Wall.

          Far from perfect, of course, but even further from utterly fucking useless in my book.

          Comment


            Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
            Mind you the American one has proven itself to be utterly fucking useless lately.
            No constitution can withstand what the republicans are trying to do to it.

            Comment


              https://prorogue.info/

              There's also a link to the petition.

              Comment


                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                There's no nice way of saying this, but not even Toro-toro would indulge in this level of pointless pedantry. You are correct, as long as the people who voted for a withdrawal agreement, then failed to vote for the procedural bits and pieces required to pass a bill. But that's sort of implied in saying that you vote for the withdrawal agreement.



                That wasn't a negotiation. The Withdrawal agreement was exactly what the EU said it was going to be. It took the UK govt quite a while to come to terms with that. The parliament never did. The problem was that it was presented as a negotiation that the UK was frequently winning.



                The Tories barely had any fucking input into it. It's not that stage of the process. The DUP fucking hate it. A labour 'negotiated' withdrawal agreement would be the same thing. The Withdrawal agreement is clearly not what you think it is. The Withdrawal agreement is just the stage in this process, where the UK has to pay its bills and give the required cast iron legal guarantees necessary to remain compliant with their treaty obligations. There's no real negotiation involved. The UK agreed to all of these things years ago. You have to accept this. You also have to make room in your world view for the uncomfortable fact, that Labour's strategy of voting against the withdrawal agreement, and opposing a second referendum, was in effect a No-Deal Strategy. You may not like it, but it is objectively true. Subsequent changes of course are welcome, but No-Deal couldn't have happened without the active involvement of the labour party.

                Now You're not going to like hearing that. But unfortunately it is true, and you should have a think about that, and what it means. Aaron Bastani is telling a really massive lie in that tweet. It may feel good to direct your anger against the faction that you don't like, but that tweet is massively dishonest in a way that should fundamentally affect how you think about him in future.
                So who was negotiating and about what?

                Are you actually claiming that that agreement from Euratom to the role of the courts was the only one possible ?

                Where is the “active involvement” of the Labour Party apart from the fact that you don’t like Jeremy Corbyn?

                Comment


                  I'm critical of Corbyn at certain points of this process but if, at this point, you're still beefing about him, and making the same point over 500 words for the 4,167th time, might I suggest energies be diverted elsewhere

                  Comment


                    More to the point, as Berbaslug continues to attack the Labour Party.

                    [URL]https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1166695638173659137?s=21[/URL]

                    incidentally if there had been a journey to a soft single market customs union Brexit then Labour could have voted for the withdrawal agreement.

                    How could they vote for a process which was about opening the way to gutting social
                    and environmental rights and which they had been entirely excluded.?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                      I'm critical of Corbyn at certain points of this process but if, at this point, you're still beefing about him, and making the same point over 500 words for the 4,167th time, might I suggest energies be diverted elsewhere
                      It's directly relevant to the tweet that was posted, and approved of. It's also something to bear in mind in general. If this ends up in no-deal, the labour party will have to accept a lot of the responsibility.

                      Comment


                        Away and play your banjo. Some of us are facing a coup.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                          More to the point, as Berbaslug continues to attack the Labour Party.
                          I'm pointing out that you approvingly posted a tweet that was a massive lie. Now are you the sort of person who is happy with massive lies because they are politically convenient and comforting, or are you better than that?

                          Comment


                            If critical mass of left/centre had mobilised around soft Brexit after 2017 we'd now be determining nature of the debate: keeping freedom of movement & single market membership.
                            Where’s the lie?
                            Last edited by Nefertiti2; 28-08-2019, 16:10.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by pebblethefish View Post
                              Typical Corbyn. Can't even get the month right
                              Well, that got a dry laugh from me.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                Away and play your banjo.
                                Top notch dismissal. Shows real pluck.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                  Where’s the lie?
                                  That's not the full quote is it? Why did you cut out the really contentious bit.

                                  Comment


                                    Ruth Davidson quits as leader

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                      Ruth Davidson quits as leader
                                      This sort of thing makes me wonder about Spoony's doubts about a scottish referendum. It's not easy to be making the case for the union now.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                        Ruth Davidson quits as leader
                                        And nothing of value was lost.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Toby Gymshorts View Post

                                          And nothing of value was lost.
                                          Thirteen Tory constituencies may well have some worth, however.

                                          Comment


                                            Still no
                                            lie

                                            ”That didn't happen because liberal establishment *always* thinks it knows best. No Deal now odds on >”

                                            Comment


                                              Thank fuck for independence is all I can say.

                                              Fianna Fail tried this shit in the 1980s but President Hillery was up to the task of being Head of State.

                                              Comment


                                                I assume that he will resign now?

                                                https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1136610833750994951

                                                Comment


                                                  "Your letter was only the start of it..."
                                                  Number 10 is considering disrupting a “time bomb” Northern Ireland debate, creating new bank holidays, filibustering Parliament and the prime minister refusing to resign if he loses a vote of no confidence.

                                                  Comment

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