The Brexit Thread

[Etienne]

Yes, I'd agree with that, E10. But I can see why centrists wouldn't.

[E10 Rifle]

Sure, but they need to face some hard political realities about their level of support. A government led by one of their self-appointed "grandees" wouldn't command a majority in parliament or the country.

[Snake Plissken]

The LDs + Green is 15 MPs. Neither of them are in a position to dictate terms.

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1161923258721210368?s=21[/URL]

[Etienne]

It's easier for Tories to do it than Lib Dems. They aren't competing for the same voters.

[George C.]

The LDs + Green is 15 MPs. Neither of them are in a position to dictate terms.

Expect an increase (of the former) when a GE comes.

[E10 Rifle]

In that case, they should support a proposal that enables a GE pretty swiftly

[George C.]

True.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

TAB's complaint seems essentially to be "This is an article about cricket. Why isn't it an article about football?" I thought it was a bit too broad-brush, and veered too awkwardly between opinion and reportage, but it was about a phenomenon that is, if anything, under-reported and needs to be talked about: the inner workings and failings of a significant and vocal section of the Remain campaign. TAB may wish they weren't a significant and vocal part of the remain campaign, but the fact is they are, and the fact is this contributes to why Remain has been such an unsuccessful political movement so far, so lacking in self-awareness and ability to reach out. All the things in fact - dogmatism, purism, intolerance of nuanced opinion - that the left is so often accused of.

Remain has so much logic and morality on its side, yet it's still failing. That's worth examining.

The UK is not a country where logic or morality seem to be important. No my complaint is that this should be an article about the weirdoes and quirky odd people who make up the various fringes of the remain movement. But these people don't seem to be the fringes of the active remain movement. They are the active remain movement, because for some inexplicable reason, the main body of a campaign The fucking people who are supposed to know how this thing works, and could run a proper serious national campaign, I.e. the fucking Labour Party, and swathes of the Trade Union movement, seem perfectly happy to sit on their fucking hands, and stick blindly to policies that have essentially guaranteed us a no-deal brexit. This is a criticial national emergency, and instead of King Arthur, and the army under the mountain coming to save Britain, only the oddballs and cranks turned up to answer the call. Is this the best you can do to save yourselves. To Irish observers, The Absence of a meaningful campaign for a second referendum is perhaps the single most inexplicable aspect of the post vote British political hellscape. You are not even trying to save yourselves.

This article seems primarily designed assuage the pangs of guilt of those that suspect that should really be doing more, by dwelling on how weird a lot of these people are. "Yeah we need to do something, but ugh Alastair Campbell, and Jolyon Maugham and Jane Austen puns." Is this the best that britain can do, really?

I thought the article was more observational than outright scathing but very pertinent for all that. Reminded me of a placard I saw at one of the anti-Brexit demos, something along the lines of "Let's Make Politics Boring Again!" I think that sums up a lot of the Remainer mindset; the idea that everything was jogging along nicely, certainly for them, until the existential threat posed by Brexit. No need for much political engagement prior to that. (Corbyn is also bundled into this thesis of an Inexplicable Fit Of Madness).

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Why do you take that to mean that they think that everything was fine before it all went on fire? That's a bit of a leap isn't it? What if they are mostly focused on the immediate problem of the raging fire? Denmark is pretty much the exemplar of how you should build a social democratic society in a lot of respects, and is top of pretty much every measurement that you would consider useful. That side of their politics is very dull.(unless you're a bit of a policy nerd) Fixing the NHS would be miraculous. But it would be a very boring miracle. building a million council flats in london would be amazing, but unless you were particularly fascinated by construction work, it would be boring. Brexit is exciting .Brexit is really exciting. Then again the bay of pigs and the Suez crisis were exciting. Exciting is not always good. The Prime minister has taken to social media to denounce the collaborators. That's very exciting.

Something else that is worth considering is that any meaningful remain campaign by necessity is also going to include tories. The only thing that a remain campaign is really going to have in common is that the people in it don't want to leave the european union. And that can include people who make quite a lot of money in the City who don't want to see their entire industry relocate.

[johnr]

and could run a proper serious national campaign, I.e. the fucking Labour Party, and swathes of the Trade Union movement, seem perfectly happy to sit on their fucking hands, and stick blindly to policies that have essentially guaranteed us a no-deal brexit.

Well, let's see how Corbyn's letter to other MPs - essentially, guarding us against a no-deal Brexit - plays out.

[E10 Rifle]

Well at the very least, "Let's make politics boring again" invites a question: If you're saying it was boring once, when was that, and why?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

are they going to pass the withdrawal agreement? Are they going to call a second referendum? If not what are they doing?

[Nefertiti2]

They have said they will call for a second referendum. Keep up.

they also previously held out for a withdrawal agreement which rejected Theresa May’s red lines.

[E10 Rifle]

They are going to call a second referendum if they win a general election. They are unable to call one at present, on account of not being, you know, the government.

[johnr]

are they going to pass the withdrawal agreement? Are they going to call a second referendum? If not what are they doing?

'What are they doing?' he cries, entirely missing that the letter explicitly lays out the path to a second referendum. Which in itself has been the policy for some time.

For somebody who was so dismissive of the #FBPE types in that article, you are coming across a little bit like some of them - 'Corbyn must Stop Brexit!! He has to show leadership!! He should do everything he can to STOP BREXIT!!' - Corbyn lays out plan to stop No Deal with a second referendum to follow, which is probably the only way to STOP BREXIT - 'What's Corbyn doing to Stop Brexit?! He's a Lexiteer! He wants No Deal!!'.

[E10 Rifle]

Yeah TAB's arrogant and un-self-aware "What you people need to understand is that you are all stupid" schtick would put him right at home with those FBPE-ers.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yeah TAB's arrogant and un-self-aware "What you people need to understand is that you are all stupid" schtick would put him right at home with those FBPE-ers.

I don't know about this. I would consider myself extremely and painfully self aware, More people should give it a go.

[Moonlight Shadow]

I had to drag myself out of a discussion on FB yesterday, started by a young lad up north, pro-Corbyn but also deeply pissed off about Brexit. Two of his Brexity mates piped up and I genuinely can't manage anymore to be civil with your average No Dealers "get out, simple" types...I understand I should be patient and supportive, etc, etc but I'm really, really tired of having to read opinions of people who have not got a clue what they talk about and actively wish something on themselves which is going to hurt them in so many ways. I have absolutely no illusion about the mediocrity of my intellect and my limited achievements, but even I can fathom some notion of what's reality. People like can't be saved, there is a growing mass of them, terminally dumb and ill-informed shaping our future and it is quite scary. Thank fuck I'm 50 so 2/3 of my so-far pleasant life is behind me because if I was 20 now, I'd be shitting myself...

All that to say that I have some sympathy for TaB outbursts...

[Snake Plissken]

Denmark is pretty much the exemplar of how you should build a social democratic society in a lot of respects, and is top of pretty much every measurement that you would consider useful. That side of their politics is very dull.(unless you're a bit of a policy nerd)

Well, the husband of the ex-Danish Prime Minister (himself worked in the EU, educated by the EU and the son of two EU Commissioners) yesterday said that his party were wrong to stop the Withdrawal Agreement.

[DCI Harry Batt]

It seems time to remind everyone, once again, that passing the Withdrawal Agreement on its own would have zero legal effect in the UK.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Caroline Lucas tells Swinson to back down and talk to Corbyn.

[Hot Pepsi]

"Something else that is worth considering is that any meaningful remain campaign by necessity is also going to include tories. The only thing that a remain campaign is really going to have in common is that the people in it don't want to leave the european union. And that can include people who make quite a lot of money in the City who don't want to see their entire industry relocate."


This is the part of all of this I don't get. Brexit is bad for UK businesses. A lot of them, at least. Probably most. As far as I can see, the only ones it benefits are the ones that only sell domestically and want to deregulate. How many can that be?* How is that enough to be driving this political train off the rails like this? It's the same here. Trump's trade wars, climate denial, and racism are not actually good for American business in the long run (or even the short run in many cases) or for most of the people who vote for him, but they're good for his brand and his cronies who seek power and a chance to be on TV above anything else.

That's what is so frightening - well, one of the things. We can't trust the right to even do what's in their own Econ 101-ish rational best interest. It's not even just because they're short-sighted (though they are that too). They are fully willing to bring about the apocalypse just to own the libs if that's what it takes. They will not stop until they have it all, even if all of it is burning. I regret that I didn't begin to understand this until about 2003.


* I suppose I could be more educated on this, but then I'd have to subscribe to the FT or The Economist, and I'm too cheap.

[Ginger Yellow]

Two things.

1. Most of "business" fears Corbyn even more than it fears a hard Brexit.

2. At least until recently,a lot of "business", at least the lobbying bit of it, seems to have made a strategic decision to softpedal criticism of Brexit and the government's Brexit policy because they thought a deal would happen and it was best to stay on the government's good side (and not alienate their Leave customers, for that matter), both for parochial reasons like procurement deals and regulation, and for broader reasons, so as to shape the future relationship.

[ursus arctos]

The problem is that the current version of the British economy includes both hedge funds who can make money just by betting on outcomes and a core of opportunists who see the destruction of the welfare state as a business opportunity (private insurance and health care being prominent examples, as are commercial fishermen who always hated EU conservation schemes and other anti-regulation zealots).

Add to that the number of tycoons who have more money than they now what to do with and see an opportunity to prorltect their current tax advantages, and you have more than enough to fund Leave.

This is even more the case given that virtually all big business has been internationalised. A multi-national doesn't particularly care if its profits come from the UK or the Continent.

[E10 Rifle]

Indeed.

Swinson's already looking a bit exposed by all this. It took people a few years to realise that Clegg was a shameless charlatan; looks like it could only be taking a few weeks with the new leader