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    Well, it's a thread about Brexit but the Tweet was introduced as a new contribution when in fact it appeared in an article we were in the process of discussing, and therefore not new, unless we're giving value to Trevor Bastard's ancillary comment.

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      It is fuckin hilarious but. Never trust a Jolyon.

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        Trevor Bastard's ancillary comment is quite apropos if you ask me.

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          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
          It doesn't make a single mention of the major pro-eu party in the UK parliament. How can you write about UK remainers and not mention the SNP?
          It's about an English phenomenon.

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            Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

            It's about an English phenomenon.

            Quite a few people are name-checked with no indication where they are from, so I'm not sure why TAB assumes that they're all English.

            I'm particularly doubtful about "warm, rosy-cheeked" Finbarr O'Halloran.

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              Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.

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                Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.
                True. And Steve Deacon could be a third-generation Frenchman for all we know, which is probably a good reason to not just to label everyone an English twat and instead focus on the quality of their opinions.

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                  Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                  Aye, it's not like there are millions of English folk with Irish ancestry or anything.
                  There ainít millions of English folk with Irish ancestry who go to UCC though.

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                    Was that referenced in the article, Flynnie?

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                      Also, when discussing Brexit, surely the fact there is absolutely no guarantee at all that Remain would win a second referendum is a salient topic. this article helps analyse that, youíve got a bunch of generally well off, self satisfied people who seem to regard Brexit as a part of the culture wars. Which is the problem really: the country has made shockingly little progression on understanding what the EU does, what the British state does, etc. Yes, of course Leavers are generally even more ignorant about the EU, but they won.

                      Youíve been living in Nottinghamshire for years and canít rebut the sovereignty argument? What have you been DOING with your time?

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                        Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                        Was that referenced in the article, Flynnie?
                        You know google exists right? There ainít a lot of Finnbar OíHallorans in Bristol, no matter the size of the diaspora.

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                          https://twitter.com/MikeH_PR/status/1161334214480007168?s=19

                          The replies are better than the Tweet.

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                            Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                            I'm particularly doubtful about "warm, rosy-cheeked" Finbarr O'Halloran.
                            You can google most of these people. He's from bristol. he's lived there for over 40 years at least. It's in the piece. All of the politicians mentioned are english (Except for a few foreign leaders) All of the activists are coming from a specified parts of england, most of them have names that would get you killed outside of rarefied social environments. Plaid Cymru get a brief passing mention, the SNP not at all.

                            My problem with that piece is that it suggests that remainers are slightly weird people, mostly from middle class english urban bubbles, as opposed to half the fucking population, and a majority in scotland and Northern ireland. Also, you know, you can arrive at these positions not because you're part of some quaint english tribe. You can get there by knowing the first fucking thing about how the EU works.

                            It's about an English phenomenon.

                            Well why do they primarily talk about britain and talk about a 52:48 result. It was 53.4: 46.6 in england. In the rest of the UK there were four remain votes for every three leave ones. There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland. Wales was slightly leave, but less than England. You can find plenty of Scottish people who voted for remain on twitter. They're also focused on the imminent disaster, but they're less into twee memes though, and more into direct personal abuse, and angry invective.

                            Also I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't think that the England is particularly out of line with the European norm when it comes to the proportion of people who engage in twattish behaviour. My problem is that this article focuses almost exclusively on a subset of English people who are often carrying on in a particularly twattish way. (I am not a fan of hashtag based political movements)

                            BTW Does Wales get the same newspapers as England, or is there a special Welsh version of the Sun, and Mail like in ireland or scotland?
                            Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 14-08-2019, 00:01.

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                              Wales doesn't have what passes for Scottish print media, no. Just local papers, no Herald/Scotsman/Daily Record equivalent, let alone separate editions of the English papers.


                              though the days when the Scotsman and Herald especially were respected broadsheets with their own Foreign Correspondents dotted hither and thither seem v far off now.
                              Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-08-2019, 00:30.

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                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland.
                                Come again?

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                                  Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                  You can google most of these people. He's from bristol. he's lived there for over 40 years at least. It's in the piece. All of the politicians mentioned are english (Except for a few foreign leaders) All of the activists are coming from a specified parts of england, most of them have names that would get you killed outside of rarefied social environments. Plaid Cymru get a brief passing mention, the SNP not at all.

                                  My problem with that piece is that it suggests that remainers are slightly weird people, mostly from middle class english urban bubbles, as opposed to half the fucking population, and a majority in scotland and Northern ireland. Also, you know, you can arrive at these positions not because you're part of some quaint english tribe. You can get there by knowing the first fucking thing about how the EU works.

                                  It's about an English phenomenon.

                                  Well why do they primarily talk about britain and talk about a 52:48 result. It was 53.4: 46.6 in england. In the rest of the UK there were four remain votes for every three leave ones. There were five remain votes for every three leave votes in scotland. There were five remain votes for every four leave votes in scotland. Wales was slightly leave, but less than England. You can find plenty of Scottish people who voted for remain on twitter. They're also focused on the imminent disaster, but they're less into twee memes though, and more into direct personal abuse, and angry invective.

                                  Also I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't think that the England is particularly out of line with the European norm when it comes to the proportion of people who engage in twattish behaviour. My problem is that this article focuses almost exclusively on a subset of English people who are often carrying on in a particularly twattish way. (I am not a fan of hashtag based political movements)

                                  BTW Does Wales get the same newspapers as England, or is there a special Welsh version of the Sun, and Mail like in ireland or scotland?
                                  I don't know what "people" are doing. I think the article is a very good piece of ethnographic reporting about a curiously English phenomenon. It also helps to explain why they've (so far) failed. They have no analysis of power. Instead of marching with twee posters about cups of tea they should have been occupying the Daily Telegraph or JCB headquarters. They should have picteted the Institute of Economic Affairs. Arranged boycotts of Wetherspoons. They should have been building links with the Trade Unions and (like you) they shouldn't have wasted so much time attacking Jeremy Corbyn, and thus strengthening their opponent.

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                                    TAB's complaint seems essentially to be "This is an article about cricket. Why isn't it an article about football?" I thought it was a bit too broad-brush, and veered too awkwardly between opinion and reportage, but it was about a phenomenon that is, if anything, under-reported and needs to be talked about: the inner workings and failings of a significant and vocal section of the Remain campaign. TAB may wish they weren't a significant and vocal part of the remain campaign, but the fact is they are, and the fact is this contributes to why Remain has been such an unsuccessful political movement so far, so lacking in self-awareness and ability to reach out. All the things in fact - dogmatism, purism, intolerance of nuanced opinion - that the left is so often accused of.

                                    Remain has so much logic and morality on its side, yet it's still failing. That's worth examining.

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                                      Agree broadly with that E10.

                                      I'm ready to meet Nef half-way and have dissed drinking at the Spoons, reading the Telegraph etc. until further notice. Picketing a pointyhead think-tank or bricking Bamford's is obviously different- it needs people to be willing to risk kettling, arrest or worse. Remain doesn't (yet) have an equiv to the Hong Kong students or New Lodge bonfire builders*

                                      * eagle eyed viewers seeing this on the national news last week may have spotted my old primary school aka the Hillman Street UDA HQ at right of picture. Or at least they would have had it not been demolished in the 90s

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                                        Very well put, E10.

                                        TAB keeps on critiiquing the piece as some sort of comprehensive and overarching analysis of Remain and then finding it wanting, whereas it's merely a look at one part of the opposition to Brexit.

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                                          On a lighter note, pissed meself at Jolyon QC's suggestion for a month-long politics-fest at Maidenhead United's ground, conveniently overlooking (as Trevor Bastard points out on the Twitters) that Alan Devonshire's side were at the climax of a promotion-winning National League South campaign at the time.

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                                            Originally posted by Wouter D View Post

                                            Come again?
                                            Gah that second scotland should be in Northern Ireland.

                                            I don't know what "people" are doing. I think the article is a very good piece of ethnographic reporting about a curiously English phenomenon.

                                            that article doesn't limit the discussion to english people. It just another article that uses the term british when it means english. There are really enthusiastic remainers in Scotland They are just planning to rejoin the EU By leaving the UK.

                                            They have no analysis of power. Instead of marching with twee posters about cups of tea they should have been occupying the Daily Telegraph or JCB headquarters. They should have picteted the Institute of Economic Affairs. Arranged boycotts of Wetherspoons. They should have been building links with the Trade Unions and (like you) they shouldn't have wasted so much time attacking Jeremy Corbyn, and thus strengthening their opponent.

                                            Well if only the party that was supposed to represent them that was is supposed to be good at these things, wasn't trying to wittingly or witlessly triangulate their way to no-deal. Also those people aren't pro-remain because they have a problem with Jeremy corbyn, they have a problem with Jeremy Corbyn because he isn't pro-remain.

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                                              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                              On a lighter note, pissed meself at Jolyon QC's suggestion for a month-long politics-fest at Maidenhead United's ground, conveniently overlooking (as Trevor Bastard points out on the Twitters) that Alan Devonshire's side were at the climax of a promotion-winning National League South campaign at the time.
                                              We had a summer day out for the South of England Norn Iron Supporters Club at Maidenhead United a few years ago. Visiting Worcester City stalwart Mark Clyde was guest of honor

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                                                If I'd criticise the article for anything, is that it failed to acknowledge the organised Left element to Remain - the Another Europe is Possible campaign - which does include some of the cultural and class characteristic of the FBPE crowd, but has a different political and organisational analysis.

                                                And I'm afraid the FBPE crew's problem with Jeremy Corbyn isn't confined to him being "pro-leave" (let's leave the flaws in that contention to one side for one, blessed and sacred, moment). There's other stuff bundled in there. Which is one of the reasons for the frosty relationship between the pro-Remain Left and FBPE centrists.

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                                                  I was too lazy to make it all the way through the article, and I might be being unfair, but the part I read suggested that it has similar DNA from other articles I've read that take a very both-sidesy, uber-sensible approach. "Remainers are just as idiotic and extreme as Brexiters: here are lots of Remainers who're very upset and have said silly things on Twitter and are a bit detached from reality." With the unstated implication that they're just the opposite side of the coin as people who're upset at hearing foreign languages spoken in their local shops. The authors of these articles also seem to be saying "Look at these people who used to claim to be Sensible. But they're not really sensible enough, not able to detach themselves from everything in politics. If only they were sensible enough to not care about this, either, like me, we'd be more dispassionate and rational and be able to see both sides and come to a more neutral conclusion."

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                                                    Why not read the article first? I particular advise those based in Ireland or California to read an article about a particular manifestation of English remainer policies which sees connection with any other political activity.

                                                    thats why itís different from Scotland where there is an independence movement.

                                                    its not as has been repeatedly pointed out talking about all Remain politics but those of us who have been on marches for Remain or campaigned for Remain have commented on the twee middle class perspective which the London Olympics as the high point of 21st Century Culture and had neither an analysis or a strategy to stop Brexit.

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