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    Steering it away from TAB's word choice on Corbyn, the interesting thing about the last Shadow Cabinet meeting is the notion, completely plausible, that even McDonnell is getting irritated by the waiting on a clear position, and that LOTO are part of the problem rather than merely gatekeepers. Remove them and Corbyn probably comes down on the side of Remain sooner rather than later.



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      I'd rather concentrate on TABs word choice on Corbyn, because it really is incredibly staggeringly personal. I don't get it. I mean, what has he ever done to people? He's apparently hated to a degree that soap stars and reality TV contestants and Katie Hopkins can only dream of. I can only imagine that he's spent the last 30 years putting buckets of water on the slightly open doors of MPs offices and leaving fish behind the radiators. It's kind of weird how he can do that so effortlessly.

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        Is Katy Clark still part of the LOTO in an official capacity? Folk like her are fucking poison to anyone wanting a shift in Labour's position. Disaster socialism in one country weirdos with mad conceptions of how State Aid and the SM work.

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          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
          I'd rather concentrate on TABs word choice on Corbyn, because it really is incredibly staggeringly personal. I don't get it. I mean, what has he ever done to people? He's apparently hated to a degree that soap stars and reality TV contestants and Katie Hopkins can only dream of. I can only imagine that he's spent the last 30 years putting buckets of water on the slightly open doors of MPs offices and leaving fish behind the radiators. It's kind of weird how he can do that so effortlessly.
          I didn't hate him but I find his intransigence and willingness to bend to anti FoM dog whistling really depressing and irritating. He's a nice, not particularly clever man I think. But hella stubborn and I hope McDonnell and Thornberry win out.

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            Largely agree, but then I see things like "Vegan Gammon Cunt" and think, wow, did he leave a bag of flaming shit on TABs doorstep, ring the bell and run away?

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              When we tolerate similar abuse on OTF for a wide variety of public figures and segments of the general population why would you expect anything less for Corbyn?

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                Why is vegan gammon an insult?.I've obviously missed something.

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                  Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                  Why is vegan gammon an insult?.I've obviously missed something.
                  Both Corbyn, and Islington itself, have long been synonymous with vegetarianism, and by extension limp liberalism, but wasn't aware he had gone full vegan.

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                    Gammon refers to middle aged red faced Brexit fannies who get apoplectic on Question Time. Almost always petit Bourgeoisie but our commentariat see them as The Authentic Voice of the Ignored Working Classes (cos these fools mistake anyone with a non RP accent for being a pleb)

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                      Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                      When we tolerate similar abuse on OTF for a wide variety of public figures and segments of the general population why would you expect anything less for Corbyn?
                      Even as an unabashed swearer, it is mainly because a) I don't think he's done something bad enough to justify the word and b) it doesn't leave you with anywhere else to go when it comes to the Tories.

                      I'm not sure that Vegan should be used as an insult either but hey.

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                        Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                        When we tolerate similar abuse on OTF for a wide variety of public figures and segments of the general population why would you expect anything less for Corbyn?
                        I can 'tolerate' it. I mean, it shouldn't be banned. It's just that, along with 'pensionable' and various other (sometimes, admittedly, creative) insults directed at Corbyn from TAB, it just demeans his argument, again and again. This is a serious discussion, and TAB thinks that ranting and shouting and insulting gets him, and his argument, anywhere (it's a very masculine /male way of arguing, but that's probably for another thread) . It doesn't, hence me being embarrassed for him, because he appears to have the intelligence to know better.

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                          Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                          The kernel of the issue, as ever, is that even Leavers can arrive at no consensus as to what Brexit they would prefer, but the one clear finding is that No Deal is very much a minoritarian position:

                          Where did this graph spring from, DR?

                          No way has/is there that level of support for May's deal, not that I've seen...

                          This appears something of an outlier, comparing support for Leave compared to Remain in recent times.

                          https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...-leave-the-eu/

                          https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/



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                            (I probably need to make clear that I'm not picking up on it in any kind of moderator-y way. Just pointing out that he's getting the strongest possible term of abuse and I'm wondering what he's done to deserve it.

                            Anyway, carry on.)

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                              Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                              Why is vegan gammon an insult?.I've obviously missed something.
                              Oh it's definitely an insult alright. Every bit as much as plain common or garden Gammon is an insult. But the question is, is it inaccurate? Have we simply not largely regressed to refighting the political battles from when the baby boomers were young?

                              This Corbynite/blarite row is a row based on a false dichotomy. The Opposite to being a blairite, (someone who thinks what the tories have done is just fine and needs to be tidied up a little around the edges) is being a pro-European integration Social democrat, aimed at increasing the govts share of the economy to the European average at least, while tackling income inequality, through taxation and redistribution, and who would use European co-operation to come down like a hammer on Corporate and income tax evasion. Or basically, try and make the UK more like Denmark, and less like America (A grouping that you might expect to be led by Stephen Kinnock, if he didn't seem to be the Ian Paisley jr of English politics)

                              I see very little of that in the current labour party. And it fucking kills me, because that is pretty much the sort of labour party that people on here would actually like. Instead we get this nonsense, with a couple of thoughtful progressive ideas scattered around here and there to keep people broadly on board.

                              As for why so personal about corbyn, simply look back to the start of the line quoted from. If Corbyn comes around to supporting remain in a second referendum, it is a terrible admission that he has been wrong all along, and we've wasted a lot of time waiting for him to move on from that. He is a big bit of the problem. Labour's position on brexit for much of the last three years, has been delusional, dishonest, and fucking dangerous. Someone has to be responsible for this.

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                                Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post

                                Both Corbyn, and Islington itself, have long been synonymous with vegetarianism, and by extension limp liberalism, but wasn't aware he had gone full vegan.
                                Oh it's got nothing to do with his diet, or islington, or the vegan movement. It's that I can't really thing of what the opposite to Gammon (Which I also quite like) is, other than a vegan alternative.

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                                  Pretty impressive for them to have managed to stop Brexit at every attempt that the Tories tried to make, then.

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                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                    Oh it's got nothing to do with his diet, or islington, or the vegan movement. It's that I can't really thing of what the opposite to Gammon (Which I also quite like) is, other than a vegan alternative.
                                    SJW? Social Justice Warrior.

                                    PS.

                                    Have met Corbyn, easily the most personable politician I've ever met. By a country mile.

                                    And have met a few. At least 50 MPs. Not all at once though!
                                    Last edited by George C.; 26-06-2019, 18:47.

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                                      Originally posted by George C. View Post

                                      Where did this graph spring from, DR?

                                      No way has/is there that level of support for May's deal, not that I've seen...

                                      This appears something of an outlier, comparing support for Leave compared to Remain in recent times.

                                      https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...-leave-the-eu/

                                      https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/


                                      Latest YouGov/Times poll:

                                      http://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1143915131027546114
                                      Last edited by Diable Rouge; 26-06-2019, 19:22.

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                                        Ok, thanks.

                                        Will scrutinise later.

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                                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                          Pretty impressive for them to have managed to stop Brexit at every attempt that the Tories tried to make, then.
                                          I'd give them more credit if May was able to get more than 200 of her own party to vote for any agreement. Also it was clear very early on that theresa May was never going to be able to get an agreement that would get the support of enough of her own party. My suggestion would have been that very early on would have been a good time to offer to vote the Withdrawal Agreement through in exchange for a three way referendum, and then wait for her to get desperate while the idea is out there from the very beginning. If for no other reason than people would be a lot more fucking used to the idea by now, and you could have spent the intervening couple of years hammering the govt, rather than being constrained by a policy of promising to do pretty much exactly the same thing, but slightly different.

                                          I blame the labour party leadership for this. At this stage I have very little other than contempt for the way that the leadership of the Labour party have handled brexit. They're a fucking disgrace, I don't care how polite or personable they are, or how some of their policies are good ones.

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                                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                            I'd give them more credit if May was able to get more than 200 of her own party to vote for any agreement.
                                            First vote rejected 432 - 202, 196 Conservatives voting for her agreement
                                            Second vote rejected 391 - 242 235 Conservatives voting for her agreement
                                            Third vote rejected 344 to 286. 277 Conservatives voting for her agreement

                                            Oh... darn those pesky facts again!

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                                              Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                              Pretty impressive for them to have managed to stop Brexit at every attempt that the Tories tried to make, then.
                                              More like they‘ve lightly obstructed and delayed it in their own interests. TAB is completely right on this, and his anger reflects the justified anger of everyone I‘ve spoken to in Ireland about the whole mess and what it could mean for their country.

                                              Brexit was spawned by the Tories and Labour has failed to nail them on what a clusterfucking disaster it‘s been from the start. I remember even before the vote, I think (or it might have been shortly after), someone tweeting how he resigned from Labour‘s Remain campaign because it was clear the party heads were not actually interested in remaining. Nothing we‘ve seen these past three years contradicts this. They‘ve hedge and prevaricated in a dishonest fashion right from the start.

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                                                Seems somewhat wishful thinking by Politico to suggest Varadkar as an alternative candidate for Commission President - aside from the fact that he's only been Taoiseach for two years, and wouldn't want to leave, he's all style and no substance, with Coveney arguably the real powerbroker in the present Government.

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                                                  Originally posted by imp View Post
                                                  Brexit was spawned by the Tories and Labour has failed to nail them on what a clusterfucking disaster it‘s been from the start. I remember even before the vote, I think (or it might have been shortly after), someone tweeting how he resigned from Labour‘s Remain campaign because it was clear the party heads were not actually interested in remaining. Nothing we‘ve seen these past three years contradicts this. They‘ve hedge and prevaricated in a dishonest fashion right from the start.
                                                  The problem with nailing the Tories on the disaster right from the start is that the day after the referendum the Sensibles decided that was the perfect time to try and force the party leader to resign. Ignoring the fact that he'd just delivered a 70% Remain vote from his party vote and was a hell of a lot more visible, both in the media and at actual events than the actual person from Labour leading the campaign (go on, name him). At a time when Cameron resigned, the Tories were in a mess and Corbyn is firefighting yet a-fucking-gain. Oh, and incidentally, it was about this time that the "Labour heartlands in the North delivered Brexit, not racist Tory Gammons in the Home Counties" and "the will of the people" narratives managed to get themselves established. This pattern has been shown time after time, the Tories meltdown over Brexit and suddenly Jess Phillips or someone else starts tweeting about anti-semitism. Regular as fucking clockwork.

                                                  And that is before we get to the Peoples Vote bollocks, who in the middle of the Tory leadership contest are (checks their Twitter feed) still 80% attacking Labour.

                                                  Despite the constant attempts at wrecking, Labour haven't "lightly obstructed" Brexit. They've prevented it..so far They prevented it by blasting Mays majority out of the water. In the WA votes, they had 3, 2 and 5 rebels. They've kept their end of the bargain. For an alleged Brexit supporting leadership, they've managed to vote against it every time. They've tried to stop No Deal several times. They've tried to force a second referendum. They've tried a vote of No Confidence. What else can an Opposition do?

                                                  And there is no evidence that Remain would canter to a win in a second referendum. If Labour's position in the polls is because of Brexit, then why aren't the Lib Dems doing with the Labour vote what the Brexit Party have done with the Tory vote? And before someone says "Labour would be 20-30-40 points ahead in the polls if it wasn't for Corbyn" then sit back and really think about that one. Because it means that a Corbyn manifesto is incredibly popular, but people won't vote for it because they don't like the man who came up with it. That makes no sense.

                                                  (Oh, and the 20 points argument also means that their Brexit stance is incredibly popular, but hell, logic isn't some peoples strong point.)

                                                  I get the anger. God knows it's hard enough watching it from afar but imagine what it is like being in the middle of it. I've had good friends who settled over here 20 years and built lives leave for their home country. My wifes business is struggling - we're keeping our head above water but every market we go to is down by 20% and we're doing well compared to others. The amount of stalls is shrinking. The footfall is dropping off a cliff. People aren't buying - they are just having a cheap day out if the weather is nice. And this is obviously small beer compared to retail business collapsing. People just want this to end, somehow or other. There is an exhaustion out there. It isn't exhaustion with trying to Leave, it is exhaustion with the paralysis.

                                                  Ultimately the problem is this, and it's something that no-one has come up with a sane and realistic answer to: The referendum was lost 52-48. How do you overturn a democratic decision when there is no appetite anywhere in the country to do so? How do you tell 17.4 million people that their votes don't count?

                                                  Because all I'm hearing is "Well, if Jeremy Corbyn would wave a magic wand then it would all be fixed".
                                                  Last edited by Snake Plissken; 26-06-2019, 21:44.

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                                                    Yep, no way out of this. The whole debate pre and post referendum has largely been infantile, lead by people unable to speak to the people as adults and we have ended up in a situation where an increasingly large amount of people just want it to end. I still believe a revocation would cause mass aneurysms amongst a minority of ultras but the majority of people would just shrug their shoulders and carry on. The whole momentum for Brexit is gone.

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