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    Oh I know, that's why I was going to vote Labour. But this is a purely symbolic election, given that the MEPs elected will only be in post for a few months and probably not able to influence EU policy. So all we care about here is what the headlines will say the next day, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

    Obviously more Brexit MEPs isn't great even in that context, but equally Labour doing well will be seen as a vindication of their Brexit policy, just like the last GE results. I think the clincher for me in that Owen Jones article is this part:

    In 2017, Labour whipped its MPs to trigger article 50, and campaigned in the general election to accept the referendum result. This, it was said, would lead to electoral doom as enraged remainers fled elsewhere. Instead, it helped Labour secure the same vote share as Tony Blair did 16 years earlier, depriving the Tories of their majority.
    If Labour needs 'ultra-remainers' to desert them for them to get the message, then so be it. If I vote Green, at least there's no risk of it being mistaken (or wilfully misread) as a vote for Brexit.

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      I think the European Parliament delegation might be around for a while. If you are wanting to make a statement though, I wholeheartedly support a Green vote, it certainly can't be misinterpreted.

      I also think that people are putting too much weight on whether the Brexit party "wins" the European elections or not. People know that there is a very substantial number of Leave voters in the country. If they get a couple of percentage points more or less than Labour will make sod all difference.

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        They just don't understand ultra-remainer culture.

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          Yeah I think Owen's stretching it a bit to say that Labour's Brexit strategy was what won those extra votes in 2017; I'd say the more decisively and refreshingly social-democratic turn in the manifesto was more of a clincher (and so would he, in other arguments, I'm sure). Not being Brexit-obsessive certainly helped though, and he has got a point about Ultra-Remainers' total Brexit myopia (the 'everything was fine until 2016' strand of Remainerism).

          I'd (obviously) recommend a Labour vote in any case, because it won't really be interpreted as "a vote for Brexit", as yer actual Brexit supporters seem pretty united in disdaining Labour as a "pro-Remain party, scuppering the will of the 2016 referendum".

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            In canvassing this week, I've had 'I won't vote Labour cos they're Remainers' and I've just had a fella shout at me outside the polling station (I live opposite, and am having a break) 'I'm not voting Labour cos the bastard (Corbyn) won't say what he wants to do with Brexit'.

            I think Owen might stretch the 'ultra-Remainers' thing a bit too far, but as somebody who campaigned for Remain, I do think that there is such a thing as an 'ultra-Remainer' - somebody who, rather than just see it as incredibly important, sees it as the only important thing. The sort that reply to Corbyn's Twitter when he posts about a cyclone, say 'what about Brexit'? That fella Femi who's a big Twitter personality - 'I'd vote Labour if they offer a confirmatory referendum, and unless they do that I'm not going to vote to relieve homelessness' sort of thing. Puts me off, lord knows what it looks like to the waverers.

            As a side note on the voting today. Me and the Green Teller (the Tories don't bother turning up here) were just laughing about the ones that want to tell you what they've voted, even when we tell them that we can't talk politics outside the station. In addition to the above 'bastard' bloke, so far we've also had 'I voted Labour, I like the Greens but we've got to get the Tories out' and a passing 'I think Corbyn's fucking brilliant, but I don't live round here and am not back home in time to vote', which ignores the local election context altogether.

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              For some reason I had a Tory knock on the door the other day. Which is weird as I'm in London so we don't have local elections.
              I'd like to think my opening gambit of "I wouldn't vote tory if you put a gun to my temple, you people are a bunch of Far right wank hammers, now get off my property" probably got the point across.

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                Canvassing the other day - red-faced man in a huge and elaborate house answers 'Of course I'll be voting, it's important to vote, I always vote...', before berating Corbyn as a Marxist, the Greens for putting leaflets through his door, and the Tories for not delivering Brexit. He confidently said that he'll be voting for the Brexit Party or Ukip, and when I mentioned that neither are standing in our local election, the conversation died a bit of a death. He must have inherited his money, cos he didn't appear to have had the brains ever to have earnt it.

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                  Originally posted by johnr View Post

                  I think Owen might stretch the 'ultra-Remainers' thing a bit too far, but as somebody who campaigned for Remain, I do think that there is such a thing as an 'ultra-Remainer' - somebody who, rather than just see it as incredibly important, sees it as the only important thing. The sort that reply to Corbyn's Twitter when he posts about a cyclone, say 'what about Brexit'? That fella Femi who's a big Twitter personality - 'I'd vote Labour if they offer a confirmatory referendum, and unless they do that I'm not going to vote to relieve homelessness' sort of thing. Puts me off, lord knows what it looks like to the waverers.

                  And then there's this sort of nonsense, from the sensible Remainers...https://twitter.com/hendopolis/statu...75831858020352

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                    Christ. I've never actually read the New European. Covers like that would appear to vindicate my judgment.

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                      Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                      Yeah I think Owen's stretching it a bit to say that Labour's Brexit strategy was what won those extra votes in 2017; I'd say the more decisively and refreshingly social-democratic turn in the manifesto was more of a clincher (and so would he, in other arguments, I'm sure). Not being Brexit-obsessive certainly helped though, and he has got a point about Ultra-Remainers' total Brexit myopia (the 'everything was fine until 2016' strand of Remainerism).
                      OJ's article doesn't attempt to explain what an ultra-remainer is other than to suggest that it is someone who won't at this stage settle for a soft/Labour Brexit. If it has a more specific meaning he should make that clear when writing for a general audience (if we can stretch that term to include the Guardian's readership).

                      Who are these people who think that everything was fine before 2016? Isn't his issue more with those who think that Labour was heading in the right direction, or at least in their direction, before Corbyn? Remain and anti-Corbynism shouldn't be conflated due to gobshite exponents of the latter trying to weaponise JC's lack of enthusiasm for the EU. This runs the risk of playing the Tories' game and letting the country pay the price for internal party wranglings.

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                        I'm not happy with the term "ultra-Remainer". I'm a bloody ultra-Remainer when it comes down to it, yet I recognise that there are tactical ways of achieving that goal that do not necessarily involve a referendum (which imo should only be used as a very last resort, as it could backfire badly.) I hate all this "People's Vote" branding, as though this mythical "People" have a right to a referendum on this - don't they see that's what started this whole bloody mess in the first place. It really should be a last resort and only a last resort.

                        Not to mention the fact that there are other issues as or more important than Brexit (climate change, austerity).

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                          See it's all the same with these cunts. Young voices of a new generation, excoriating those in power for their compromises and their betrayal of principles, then before you know it you're telling people that value-free triangulation which is shameful in other contexts, is completely fucking different when its your friends and fellow travellers is the only sensible option and before you know it, you're fat, fifty and christopher hitchens killing yourself slowly because you can't shake the nagging idea that you're a cunt. Jones should be ashamed of himself for writing that shit. .

                          Not to mention the fact that there are other issues as or more important than Brexit (climate change, austerity).

                          I hear that said a lot. It's not actually true.

                          Yeah I think Owen's stretching it a bit to say that Labour's Brexit strategy was what won those extra votes in 2017; I'd say the more decisively and refreshingly social-democratic turn in the manifesto was more of a clincher

                          there's literally nothing social democratic about labours last election manifesto, and people thinking that that is what constitutes social democracy is a massive problem. It was social democratic in the way that fianna fail in the 1970's was social democratic. it was just a series of unfunded promises targeted at a number of groups of people, with literally fuck all for the poorest or most marginalized. They may as well have been the five star movement for the way the whole thing fitted together so badly.

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                            You're right TAB. Worldwide climate change is not as important as a UK vote to leave the EU.

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                              Climate change is probably the only thing that's more serious than Brexit (for British residents). All the other stuff, including austerity, is impacted to such an extent by Brexit that it's silly trying to dissociate it from Brexit.

                              *Not, of course, that Labour or Tory parties would be saying or doing anything of substance about climate change even if Brexit weren't an issue at all.

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                                Jones does define what he means by ultra remainers.

                                https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1123886351252897792

                                And here's TAB to point out that theEU - which has failed to invest in its own infrastructure and kept wages low are the real socialists,

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                                  Wanting refugees to be couped up in holding centres in Libya also progressive, appaz

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                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                    Jones does define what he means by ultra remainers.
                                    Well it would have been nice of him to have done that in his article, instead of tarring everyone who disagrees with Labour's stance with the same brush.

                                    TAB, do you seriously believe that Brexit is more important than climate change?

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                                      And here's TAB to point out that theEU - which has failed to invest in its own infrastructure and kept wages low are the real socialists,

                                      The EU does nothing of the sort. Those are matters for the individual countries, and vary widely from country to country. Just because you live in a thatcherite shit hole heading for the golden days of the 1880s doesn't mean that everyone else does too. People in the UK have to stop projecting the problems of their own country onto the EU. It looks really weird to people from other countries, even if they are doing the same thing within the context of their own politics.

                                      You're right TAB. Worldwide climate change is not as important as a UK vote to leave the EU.

                                      One of the major reasons to leave the European union is to be free of EU environmental regulations. it's very obvious at this point that one of the emergency economic measures to combat the economic disaster of Brexit is going to be a substantial increase in Fracking. The way your society has utterly failed to deal with the issue of EU membership in a remotely rational way I'm afraid precludes pointing to other more difficult and challenging problems.

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                                        Fracking is currently likely to continue, even if we remain in the EU, and the forces that would stop it are likely to come from other sources. You can't say "the EU is responsible for all the good things", while simultaneously saying "the EU is not responsible for any bad things". Some nuance needed.

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                                          Actually you can. certainly if you're talking about the UK. the EU is only involved in certain things, including being a major source of infrastructural development, and forcing govts to provide matching funds, in a way that will simply disappear when the UK leaves.

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                                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                            [i]

                                            One of the major reasons to leave the European union is to be free of EU environmental regulations. it's very obvious at this point that one of the emergency economic measures to combat the economic disaster of Brexit is going to be a substantial increase in Fracking. The way your society has utterly failed to deal with the issue of EU membership in a remotely rational way I'm afraid precludes pointing to other more difficult and challenging problems.
                                            Our fracking commissioner has just resigned, saying that because the protests against fracking have been so effective, there's practically no chance of it getting properly underway here.

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                                              So hang on - the UK is the force pressing the EU to be better on environmental issues, and shorn of the UK, that policy push will collapse?

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                                                In a rivetting 'being a teller' update, I've just given my Labour colleague and Caroline Lucas a cup of tea a few yards outside my door, it's getting a bit windy out there. Tried to find a Labour mug (insert joke here) to offer her, to no avail. It's all very cordial, even if she is one of them ultra Remainers...

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                                                  Originally posted by Benjm View Post
                                                  Who are these people who think that everything was fine before 2016? Isn't his issue more with those who think that Labour was heading in the right direction, or at least in their direction, before Corbyn?
                                                  Your second sentence answers the first.

                                                  I’ve said it before - for a lot of the commentariat - Brexit and Corbyn is a massive issue because it is the only one to affect them. Austerity, public transport etc weren’t their problem.

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                                                    Might this end up being the local elections results thread?

                                                    Where I live - Berkhamsted - has gone from being 100% Conservative to 100% Lib Dem at borough council level. That is something of a surprise.

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