The Brexit Thread

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

The Independent is reporting that the EU parliament has voted to continue to extend visa-free travel to UK citizens post Brexit. Don't know if that's a) true or b) binding as a decision but it sounds like good news.

[Snake Plissken]

You just know that May wouldn't reciprocate if she had the opportunity.

As for Labour not being in favour of FoM - I understand that POV but I put it down to "what else can they say/do?" Not that it has happened here, but after taking a battering because "principles don't get you elected" the same people give them a shoeing by claiming they "should be above pragmatism".

FWIW, I think the entire plan has been to simply stop "freedom of movement" and introduce "frictionless travel".

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

The EU vote is dependent on us reciprocating. Visa-free travel for up to 90 days. Even the ERG wouldn't be so stupid as to deny that, surely? We offer 6 months visa-free to pretty much every country in the world right now.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Visa-free travel for a few months is all well and good (and part of the bare minimum acceptable result), but many of us feel very strongly about the work opportunities in both cross border directions that are the more substantial component of FoM.
FoM is part of what it means to be a European citizen. Those bastards (The Tories and a substantial part of Labour including Corbyn) want to take that away from us.
Aside from the specific rights to FoM, there's a major emotional identity thing here. I'm a European citizen. That's a key part of my identity. Maybe I can empathise more now with the identity obsessions of the two opposing communities in the NI conflict than I could before.

[E10 Rifle]

Freedom of Movement is part of what it means to be a citizen full stop, not just a European one. Support for migrant rights doesn't end at the continent's borders. Or shouldn't.

[Duncan Gardner]

Maybe I can empathise more now with the identity obsessions of the two opposing communities in the NI conflict than I could before

Don't do that. It only encourages them.

2- 3% of the (national) population in NI obsessing about tribal identity: not that big a deal beyond, as long as they don't return to shooting at each other.

20- 30% in England obsessing about immigration/ sovereignty: a much bigger deal.

As I reminded E10 up thread, sneering at the DUP for fcuking their country rather misses the point: it's the whole country and their role in it is relatively minor. Most regulars on here live in that country.

[Eggchaser]

It certainly can't hurt and has made the Brexiteers livid, so it can't be that bad

But it gives them something to blame for lack of unicorns and engorged cocks wrapped in Union flags, thrusting into a brave new world of trade deals and sovereignty.

[Flynnie]

I'm struggling to put into words how much I detest Labour's pandering to pub racists who won't vote for them anyway. There's always been that nasty Lukip (nice one, TonTon) element about EU membership and that's probably part of it too, but I'm about 99% sure Labour are throwing away the next GE if they engender anything short of an ultrasoft Brexit that includes FoM and the single market.

[ursus arctos]

There are about 350 Lords in the chamber at the moment, which in ensuring that the cloture motions to shut down Brexiteer delaying tactics are passing with large majorities.

[Lang Spoon]

Flynnie speaks fer me.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Freedom of Movement is part of what it means to be a citizen full stop, not just a European one. Support for migrant rights doesn't end at the continent's borders. Or shouldn't.

hmm, It is important at this point to note that Freedom of movement of labour within the European Union isn't really a human right as such, but is part of a series of Economic and political decisions to create a single market. It's a labour market Flexibility policy, and a means to allow the export of services but only within the Framework of the single market. It was only really possible to bring about because it was introduced to a European Union where all of the members were basically the same (More or less) and that the number of people moving from place to place, while higher than in the past, would be quite low. The expansion of the European Union Eastwards has seen a level of moving about that sees most european countries in the 0.5-2% annual net migration ball park (The UK is in the bottom half of the distribution). This has caused a number of problems, primarily because some countries have not provided adequately for this change.

The problem with extending freedom of movement beyond the boundaries of the European Union as things currently stand can essentially be summed up with the question, exactly how many people do you think would turn up in the first year? (please bear in mind that I am in favour of increased non-eu migration, and considerably better treatment of those migrants once here. But there would be legitimate problems with expanding freedom of movement outside the EU.)

[E10 Rifle]

Well EEG was kind of talking about the emotional appeal and the overarching principle of free movement. I agree with him over that emotional appeal and that overarching principle. I just don't think it should apply solely to Europeans (and the EU can be pretty racist towards outsiders, as we have seen). Of course any immigration system needs some sort of orderly administration and containment, but freedom of movement ought to be the aspirational principle underpinning it. As for how many people turned up in the first year, I suspect it would depend on the levels of conflict and poverty, and ability to escape, elsewhere.

[E10 Rifle]

As I reminded E10 up thread, sneering at the DUP for fcuking their country rather misses the point

Just to be clear, I'm not "sneering" at the DUP. I'm thunderously denouncing them, for being a wholly poisonous and reactionary party with nothing to offer

[johnr]

Labour should be all about FoM, within and without the EU (I realise I'm doing all sorts of 'unicorn' stuff here, but essentially I'm a utopian 'no borders' fella); however, there's been a fair bit of misreporting/misdirection over their policy in the last few days (which is in any case a restatement of their manifesto); They don't back FoM because*, on leaving the EU - which is what we are doing, nothwithstanding 2nd Ref etc - there is no automatic FoM. It seems to be a statement of fact, unless anyone can point otherwise. They do back a 'fair and managed' migration policy. Let's see what that might be.

* That's not to say that they could be a lot lot less equivocal about this - as many have pointed out, it plays out partly that they're scared of the Kippers, and partly that they've got a misplaced sense of what is possible or not with regard to regulating migrant wages/employment practice, etc - but it's more complicated than they're 'against' FoM/EU because of racism.

Edit - actually, this probably articulates it better. https://twitter.com/adampayne26/stat...07660438167554

[Duncan Gardner]

Just to be clear, I'm not "sneering" at the DUP. I'm thunderously denouncing them, for being a wholly poisonous and reactionary party with nothing to offer

More power to yer righteous trumpet brother

[San Bernardhinault]

Labour should be all about FoM, within and without the EU (I realise I'm doing all sorts of 'unicorn' stuff here, but essentially I'm a utopian 'no borders' fella); however, there's been a fair bit of misreporting/misdirection over their policy in the last few days (which is in any case a restatement of their manifesto); They don't back FoM because*, on leaving the EU - which is what we are doing, nothwithstanding 2nd Ref etc - there is no automatic FoM. It seems to be a statement of fact, unless anyone can point otherwise. They do back a 'fair and managed' migration policy. Let's see what that might be.

I thought they'd repeatedly said that they can't countenance being in the SM because that would allow freedom of movement. And they've decided that the UK public voted against freedom of movement despite that never being on any referendum ever. There is FoM if we stay in the Single Market, which is the best outcome possible within the context of Brexit happening, yet they still try and resist this if possible.

It feels like clear pandering to pub-racists.

Like most others on here I'm a utopian no borders believer. I think it's a basic right to be able to choose to live and work where you want to, rather than having that decision imposed by bureaucrats deciding the criteria on which you can and can't score points, for example, to get a work visa. Obviously you should try and widen the areas within which this freedom exists as much as possible - if that's just the EU, then it's not enough, but it's still a start. Reducing it feels particularly odious.

[Flynnie]

Let's be blunt, if Labour can't make the case for migration of mostly white Europeans they sure ain't gonna fucking make the case for the rest of the Commonwealth or the world. This is straight out of the Labour that passed a bill in three days to strip Kenyan Asians of their British citizenship in 1968 to placate Enoch Powell, who thanked them by making his rivers of blood speech two weeks later.

[Janik]

They don't back FoM because*, on leaving the EU - which is what we are doing, nothwithstanding 2nd Ref etc - there is no automatic FoM. It seems to be a statement of fact, unless anyone can point otherwise.

Here you go, from two days ago:- Barnier: 'There's no obligation leaving EU to leave Customs Union, no obligation to leave Single Market. I didn't see the debate about what are the national interests of the UK.' He adds: 'It's not my role to go to the HoC to explain. I'm ready to do that if it would be useful.'
Leaving the EU but staying in the Single Market, which is entirely possible as they are different things, is all it takes to automatically preserve FoM.

[Ginger Yellow]

Well, yeah, but only by staying in the EEA. If we just leave, unless we actively sign up to CU and/or SM, we're not in them.

[DCI Harry Batt]

There's always been that nasty Lukip (nice one, TonTon)

Spread it far and wide.

[Alderman Barnes]

I appreciate that Corbyn's Labour is walking a tightrope and that there's terrible bad faith going on from some of the loudest "pro-Europeans", but for those of us who have exercised FoM and now have "foreign" families in limbo, the apparent willingness to ditch it is extremely worrying. I like Corbyn as a person and I like his policies, but he'd better fucking know what he's doing in there.

[Moonlight Shadow]

Let's be blunt, if Labour can't make the case for migration of mostly white Europeans they sure ain't gonna fucking make the case for the rest of the Commonwealth or the world. This is straight out of the Labour that passed a bill in three days to strip Kenyan Asians of their British citizenship in 1968 to placate Enoch Powell, who thanked them by making his rivers of blood speech two weeks later.

Yeah, that's pretty much it...Legitimate concerns twat from Clitheroe idea of a fair migration policy is to shut the door...Ah well, i am sure it makes sense somehow at the strategic thinking meetings...

[Nocturnal Submission]

Interesting result in the Newport West by-election. Labour hold but with a low turnout, bad weather and the death of a popular, veteran MP accepted, they still lose over 13,000 votes and see a hefty slump in their share of the vote.

[ooh aah]

The large Labour majority there is relatively recent, in 2010 it was only around 3500 iirc, despite the fact that Paul Flynn was very popular.

[HORN]

I’m surprised that the turnout was down almost 50% from 2017. I’m itching to vote for summat.