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    Why? He was pro-EU from about 1986. The Council of Ministers is very much his sort of politics, sitting around with leaders chewing the fat on high level stuff. I've no reason to think he isn't genuine on the issue.

    The outriders for Remain aren't really Blairite as such. More that they represent Remain areas, disproportionately in London. Plus Wales, where Brexit electorates are reacting to their party "denying the referendum" by giving them 50% in polls today, which would give them 2 or 3 more Westminster seats.

    Caroline Flint is voting for the repeal bill.

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      Corbyn says today that we could stay in the Single Market. I think this is a further shift from the Starmer position of staying in for transition.

      I'm happy with that. My criticism that he could build Brexit's effect more into the broader points he makes remains. But much better, and it's looking more like a careful plan to shift policy while not frightening horses. Encouraging.

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        Brexit Secretary David Davis said people did not "vote for confusion" in last year's referendum
        You could have fooled me.

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          Bob Neill, the Conservative chair of the Commons justice committee, is speaking now. He says he will back the bill, but he says it “needs improvement in a number of areas”. He agrees with the criticisms made by Ken Clarke (here) and Dominic Grieve (here) in Thursday’s debate, he says. He says clause 7 and clause 9, which deal with the “Henry VIII” powers being given to ministers, “go beyond that which is acceptable or necessary”.

          On the subject of the programme motion, which gives eight days for the committee stage, he says he can support this, but that he wants assurances that the government will allow more time if that turns out to be necessary.

          He says he hopes he will hear assurances on this point when David Lidington, the justice secretary, winds up the debate for the government tonight.
          Why would they reassure you when you've already got your vote?

          I suppose it's possible that there's a double act with Davis as the hardman who "gets on with Brexit" and Lidington as the bloke who listens to lawyers (quite a big electoral constituency, along with the rest of Tory professionals whose support they're pissing away) but I wouldn't bet on it.

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            Vicky Ford talking a big game but still says she's going to support the bill.

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              She's an ex-MEP, and knows what she's talking about on the EU. I was pleasantly surprised she got a safe seat in 2017. Would be good if she did something with it.

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                Kevin Barron MP ✔ @KevinBarronMP
                I will be abstaining on EU Withdrawal Bill as vote against would be a contradiction of the promises I was elected on, only a few months ago.
                Had a big swing to Tories in the last election, so I can see where he's coming from. Probably won't be the only one to do this. Can't he talk Flint into doing the same?

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                  Well indeed. Point being, if even she's voting for it, there's no chance of a meaningful Tory vote against.

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                    It'll be Clarke and possibly Grieve by the look of it. Maybe Heidi Allen.

                    Peter Bone just agreed that the powers for the government are too great. That's how bad this bill is.

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                      It's rather pathetic to say it should/can be improved in comittee when this is the best they could come up with after more than a year.

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                        Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                        It's not specific to the English upper class. They were all shit. The Hungarian nobility were utter twats who just protected their own interests constantly. I assume the same is true of all European aristocrats. The best thing that can be said about communism in Eastern Europe is that it broke the back of the nobles. They're trying to find a way back now but with luck they won't succeed
                        I suppose I was thinking the English took the biscuit in this race because their empire was larger, but the Spanish aristocracy take some beating. France too, though they got their ass kicked pretty hard.

                        One of the great achievements of the American Revoultion - in some ways, the only one - was to eliminate titles and royalty. The founders imagined themselves to be a kind of meritocratic upper class. In some ways they were, at least compared to the corrupt and inbred - literally and figuratively - upper class of Europe. But then rich land-owners and industrialists created their own kind of aristocracy, even linking up to the old European one via marriage. And so many Americans are still deeply impressed with the British Royal Family. It's aggravating.

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                          Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                          It's rather pathetic to say it should/can be improved in comittee when this is the best they could come up with after more than a year.
                          Yeah, it's like the Republicans claiming there'll be a great Healthcare plan if they can only get their shit bill out through and start the work.

                          Craig Mackinlay, the Conservative MP and a one-time Ukip acting leader, says fishing is one area where the public are demanding a clean Brexit. He says reimposing a 200-mile border around the coast for the British fleet around where that is possible, and a border at the half-way point where other countries have territorial water, will ensure the revival our Britain’s coastal communities.
                          Yeah, I'm sure that's how it works. It's not like fish move or anything.

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                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                            Corbyn says today that we could stay in the Single Market. I think this is a further shift from the Starmer position of staying in for transition.
                            It's funny how these things are reported. I heard that interview; he said nothing - nothing - that he hadn't said before ('if you come out of EU you have to leave the SM; we want as close as possible to the SM; time will tell' sort of thing), but people are seeing what he said in a different light. He's always been about playing the long game with Brexit, which is why I thought the fuss over the A50 triggering was just that. A whole big fuss, led by a load of blowhards.

                            On a slightly different tack, one of the things I've noticed on the pro-Remain (I wish we could think up a better title for them, cos we're leaving) Twitter feeds, when they say 'we were lied to' is the inevitable retort 'well, the Remain side lied too! Both sides did it!' - and that will continue. Without sounding too much like a fanboy, Corbyn never lied or exaggerated the pro-EU pitch (the leaflets I distributed with his face on were all about 'we need to stay, and reform', no hyperbole) - which may have been a better approach to take. All he got in thanks was a whole bunch of 'he never tried hard enough'.

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                              Sounds like Chris Bryant got stuck in, as he did on Article 50. His constituency voted leave. His majority went up by 6,000.

                              Wales generally is a good area for Labour opposition to Hard Brexit. And Welsh Labour got 50% in the latest opinion poll, best since Miliband was way out in front UK-wide.

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                                Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                It's funny how these things are reported. I heard that interview; he said nothing - nothing - that he hadn't said before ('if you come out of EU you have to leave the SM; we want as close as possible to the SM; time will tell' sort of thing), but people are seeing what he said in a different light. He's always been about playing the long game with Brexit, which is why I thought the fuss over the A50 triggering was just that. A whole big fuss, led by a load of blowhards.

                                On a slightly different tack, one of the things I've noticed on the pro-Remain (I wish we could think up a better title for them, cos we're leaving) Twitter feeds, when they say 'we were lied to' is the inevitable retort 'well, the Remain side lied too! Both sides did it!' - and that will continue. Without sounding too much like a fanboy, Corbyn never lied or exaggerated the pro-EU pitch (the leaflets I distributed with his face on were all about 'we need to stay, and reform', no hyperbole) - which may have been a better approach to take. All he got in thanks was a whole bunch of 'he never tried hard enough'.
                                That's one way of putting it!

                                I think the referendum came too soon for him as leader. I wanted him booted out on the back of his performance then, but he's got a lot better.

                                As I understand it, he was asked about staying in the Single Market beyond transition. He didn't say "No". That's how politicians prepare for shifts.

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                                  You can add Anna Soubry to the list of people who talk the talk but won't ever walk the walk. (Heidi Allan was mentioned, she'll vote for it too.)

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                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                    Why? He was pro-EU from about 1986. The Council of Ministers is very much his sort of politics, sitting around with leaders chewing the fat on high level stuff. I've no reason to think he isn't genuine on the issue.
                                    Well exactly, he's deeply in love with the kind of EU that even the most ardent remainers can't defend: power lunches with the international elite movers and shakers. Exactly the kind of thing that makes people hate the EU. It has nothing to do with the real lives of people who have moved to different countries to work and have settled and started families there. And with his latest "tough on immigration" talk he's shown that he's happy to throw us all under the bus anyway. He can fuck right off with that.

                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                    The outriders for Remain aren't really Blairite as such. More that they represent Remain areas, disproportionately in London. Plus Wales, where Brexit electorates are reacting to their party "denying the referendum" by giving them 50% in polls today, which would give them 2 or 3 more Westminster seats.
                                    I'd be very interested to know how many Labour voters in those leave areas voted leave. The 70% or whatever in those places will have included Tories, Kippers and god knows what else who would never have voted Labour anyway. And I also wonder whether it would be 70% now.

                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                    Caroline Flint is voting for the repeal bill.
                                    So is Frank Field, Britain's foremost bellwether for wrongness. As I said, that lot will stop at nothing to stir the shit. Unfortunately the Tories, no matter how much mouth and trousers they are (Soubry), will always tow the line when things get serious. The Enabling Act is going to get passed at the first reading.

                                    I've never felt so disconnected from the country I grew up in.

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                                      See also the deafening silence from the Scots Tories, who in theory should hold the whip hand over May. Davidson's rhetoric on Brexit post election has been reduced to a whimper. And then Cardiff and Edinburgh will "veto" and London will go so fuck.

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                                        The weakness on display is astonishing...

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                                          Well exactly, he's deeply in love with the kind of EU that even the most ardent remainers can't defend: power lunches with the international elite movers and shakers. Exactly the kind of thing that makes people hate the EU. It has nothing to do with the real lives of people who have moved to different countries to work and have settled and started families there. And with his latest "tough on immigration" talk he's shown that he's happy to throw us all under the bus anyway. He can fuck right off with that.
                                          But that's how stuff like freedom of movement got agreed and implemented, people like him sitting around tables and agreeing stuff. I'd very happily defend that and much else, and can't be bothered with people who do that "Brussels elites" stuff. At least not here, I appreciate the Eurozone is more difficult.

                                          I think what he's proposing and Hard Brexit are so different that they're not even the same sport. If we got out of this shit with a settlement along the lines he suggests, I'd be delighted.

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                                            I'd be very interested to know how many Labour voters in those leave areas voted leave. The 70% or whatever in those places will have included Tories, Kippers and god knows what else who would never have voted Labour anyway. And I also wonder whether it would be 70% now.
                                            Yeah, I think this is a very important question. The Tories wouldn't be worrying about Labour voters in this situation.

                                            A while ago I looked at St Helens off the top of my head- it was 58-42 for leave- comfortable enough. Labour in 2015 did well in both seats, just under 60%. So I'd reckon that can't be far from a majority of Labour voters for Remain.

                                            What you do about that exactly, I don't know. You could be bolder than Corbyn has been, but I see his point.

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                                              I think this is quite encouraging.

                                              Mike Smithson‏
                                              @MSmithsonPB
                                              Welsh YouGov poll. How would you vote if there was another EURef
                                              REMAIN 46%+4
                                              LEAVE 42%-3
                                              Changes on May 31st
                                              There's also evidence that Labour leavers are much less supportive of a Brexit that makes them poorer than Tory ones are.

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                                                It certainly didn't get done by people like him sitting about and agreeing stuff. I don't do "Brussels elites stuff", thank you very much: put plainly, it was better people than him that sorted that out.

                                                That man is stirring shit, as he and his cohorts have not ceased to do for the past two years. He is poison and is either too lacking in self-awareness to see that, or more likely, perfectly self-aware and knows exactly what effect his interventions are having.

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                                                  Originally posted by Alderman Barnes View Post
                                                  It certainly didn't get done by people like him sitting about and agreeing stuff. I don't do "Brussels elites stuff", thank you very much: put plainly, it was better people than him that sorted that out.

                                                  That man is stirring shit, as he and his cohorts have not ceased to do for the past two years. He is poison and is either too lacking in self-awareness to see that, or more likely, perfectly self-aware and knows exactly what effect his interventions are having.
                                                  I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to people who I thought you were referring to. All sorts of people have got stuff done there- Leon Brittan and Lord Cockfield are mentioned a lot among British politicians. The EU isn't the creation of some special class of "better people". It's politicians, many not unlike Blair in EU terms, and his record there wasn't bad. In particular, the sort of lecturing he did that was written off as "Anglo Saxon" has aged fairly well given the problems the Eurozone crisis exposed.

                                                  So all this is just to undermine Corbyn? You just criticized Corbyn yourself for his EU policy. If you want to undermine Corbyn the most, would you really choose the EU as your subject? There's far more easy pickings out there than that, and you'll get the full weight of the media and government behind you.
                                                  Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 11-09-2017, 21:54.

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                                                    This is the level of rubbish that politicians get away with.

                                                    Conservative MP Nusrat Ghani says the bill is “a logical step” in the process of leaving the EU.

                                                    “Where were your objections when the laws were enacted in Brussels and forced on us in the first place?” she asks opposition MPs.

                                                    She add
                                                    "Enacted".
                                                    "In Brussels".

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