The Brexit Thread

[Tubby Isaacs]

Was Guy Verhofstadt referring to this, you think?

[San Bernardhinault]

Is the plan to deter EU immigrants by having a currency that's worth almost nothing?

[Tubby Isaacs]

And not very much growth.

[Ginger Yellow]

It is also likely to enrage many in Europe who will feel the UK is intending to treat EU nationals as second-class citizens and could invite retaliatory action by the 27-country bloc.

Well, duh. The UK intends to treat EU nationals as non-citizens, and apparently we hate non-citizens. I have to say, I'm a bit underwhelmed by this document, given that my baseline assumption was that the Tories were going to make the EU-27 like any other (white, non-Commonwealth) third country when it came to post-Brexit immigration, subject to any special deal agreed during the negotiations. So this whole "deemed leave" thing is actually a step in the right direction from what I was expecting (after transition). I guess this is the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Also, fuck off, Hannan.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jez goes for the McDonald's strike at PMQs. Good luck to them, but they'll be losing it in inflation and falling demand, the way it's looking. Abbott bravely says nothing about the leaked plans because not government policy.

I'm worried again about Labour.

[E10 Rifle]

Personally, I was just thinking that an issue like low pay and exploitation at McDonald's would never have got anywhere near the floor of the House of Commons two years ago, and how refreshing that was.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Brexit trumps it.

They've got refreshing inflation, tax rises and job cuts coming up if Labour hangs about.

[E10 Rifle]

We know Brexit is terrible, but it doesn't preclude things that are terrible now, like shit living and working standards in the here and now, while Britain is still a member of the EU.

Must every conversation about something being bad be prefaced with "But Brexit trumps it"? You see, acting like Brexit is the ONLY bad show in town is counterproductive in terms of winning people over to the cause. It makes it look like you haven't noticed any of the other many shit things that have been happening before it

[johnr]

And we've got plenty of Brexit coming up.

Tubby, will you not be satisfied until Corbyn ends every question/statement with 'it'll be worse after Brexit!'?

[E10 Rifle]

Or you could pop down to the picket line and tell it to them straight.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm criticizing the leader of the Labour party, not them.

The day the government has its UKIP policy leaked all over the front pages, I think you have to go for them, John.

[Tubby Isaacs]

We know Brexit is terrible, but it doesn't preclude things that are terrible now, like shit living and working standards in the here and now, while Britain is still a member of the EU.

Must every conversation about something being bad be prefaced with "But Brexit trumps it"? You see, acting like Brexit is the ONLY bad show in town is counterproductive in terms of winning people over to the cause. It makes it look like you haven't noticed any of the other many shit things that have been happening before it

Not enough people know Brexit is shit, and it's no good if they find out when it's too late. I blow hot and cold on whether Labour is going to level with them- I was encouraged last week, but I'm not today.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I see from Ian Dunt that Corbyn did well linking inflation with low pay. But why not join the dots to Brexit?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Tory MP telling us that immigration and trade are not connected because the EU did a deal with Canada. That'll be news to the EU. And probably India and China too.

They're still getting away with this bollocks. Everybody should be very worried about that.

[E10 Rifle]

I've been worried and angry about them lying and stoking bigotry about immigration for years and years.

[E10 Rifle]

And the fact that the Great Repeal Bill is shaping up to be one of the most authoritarian pieces of legislation this country has ever seen might want to bother people too

[Tubby Isaacs]

Indeed.

It's been suggested a minister could join the Euro with the sweeping powers proposed.

[johnr]

I see from Ian Dunt that Corbyn did well linking inflation with low pay. But why not join the dots to Brexit?

Again, and say what? 'This is bad. And when Brexit happens, it'll be worse'? Cos we're Brexiting (in a sort of name only; as I've said many a time I don't think it'll happen like the Maughams of this world fear), and Labour aren't going to say 'no we're not' - for political and practical reasons - and there's plenty of Brexit coming up. I don't think Labour need to have their agenda set by The Guardian's scoop; let's see what happens when the leaked documents are released, and debated.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Say that inflation is down to a sustained collapse in the value in the pound, which in large part down to the fucking disastrous way the govt are handling the brexit process.

He's this close to making a really strong point uniting falling living standatds and liam fucking fox, but he won't make it because I suspect he doesn't understand it. And at his age you can assume he doesn't want to understand it.

[johnr]

Are we sure that the sustained collapse in the pound is down to the govt's disastrous handing of Brexit, or is it just a result of Brexit itself?

[E10 Rifle]

Well there's lots of other things going on: ongoing wage stagnation (which long predates Brexit), increasing personal debt, and the overall failure to rebalance the economy or correct the things that caused the financial crash. Brexit adds to this of course, but you can't convincingly plug the line "all was going well and improving until June 2016", because it simply wasn't, and never has been

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Well the initial collapse was down to an unexpected leave win, but that sort of thing can be recovered from over time. That the pound stayed down and went lower, and plunges whenever govt announces the next disastrous idea.

The other thing is that its perfectly fine to talk about inflation as a really bad thing because it makes each of those problems e10 talks about much worse. It completely fucks pensioners, people on fixed incomes, the low paid and those unable to demand wage rises.

But it illuatrates a wider problem on the left that many people have simply ceded economics to the right considering it to be a grubby form of witchcraft.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah. Especially with "Europe" is something for the suits, at best.

[E10 Rifle]

When did I say it wasn't fine to talk about inflation? And how is talking about the failure to reform or rebalance the economy post-2008, and low wages, NOT talking about economics?

[E10 Rifle]

My point is that Brexit makes all the already-shit and failing things about the British economy get even shitter. But you have to acknowledge that they were shit in the first place, and would still be there, in some form, even without the Brexit vote.