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    What's the furthest do you reckon he's walked in any given day in the last 40 years?

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      Still, he could try, and die. Which would be nice.

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        If they have sore feet and chafing at the end, it will be something of a Gammon Mince.

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          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

          Right, But the person they have to start with is John McDonnell, and anyone else involved in drawing up that manifesto. Also I'm not talking about radical redistributive stuff. The thing I'm talking about is super basic and timid. That Manifesto was basically a list of promises to a wide variety of groups, that would all be funded out of efficiencies and cracking down on tax evasion, (Which is by far the weakest form of promise because the funding is so nebulous and uncertain) but contained next to nothing for people dependent on welfare payments to keep the show on the road, while leaving in place the worst excesses of Osborneism. They didn't leave all of these things out because they were scared of a backlash from their more centrist mps. They left them out because they either don't understand, or they simply don't fucking care. If they understood or cared, that would have been a lot more prominent, particularly when they were lining up for an electoral massacre, and were in desperate promises mood.
          I doubt if McDonnell doesn't understand that stuff, so I have to conclude that it must be because he simply doesn't fucking care about people that are dependent on welfare payments*. His entire political career has just been a front. It's probably because, as you said a few pages back, he'll be retiring soon and so doesn't need to worry about them, or himself - he really is alright Jack. The fucker.

          You're probably broadly correct; Labour could be more radical. They will be, once the next bunch come through (the other year I sat in on a Momentum meeting at 8pm on a Saturday night, with about 200 mainly younger people talking about how to develop an economics that better benefitted the working class). Corbyn and others have opened that space up, it'll take a few years of gestation. I expect the next Labour manifesto to be more radical, and the one after that to be more so, etc.

          But instead, you suggest that they start by deselecting John McDonnell - I'm afraid that your own hyperbole nearly always ends up destroying whatever arguments you have.

          *(I'm assuming that your binary choice is all there is.)

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            Originally posted by MsD View Post
            If they have sore feet and chafing at the end...
            He's got his eyes on Ian Botham's lucrative foot spa endorsement contract. Hope he drowns in a freak accident during the shoot.

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              Was surprised to see a billboard ad for No Deal Brexit on the Old Kent Road. Part of a campaign by Brexit Express.

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                I’ve seen brexit leafletters a couple of times in MK lately - my guess is that one was lexit. The other one, though, I was a bit surprised to hear “Leave means leave” in a Scottish accent.

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                  Originally posted by johnr View Post

                  I doubt if McDonnell doesn't understand that stuff, so I have to conclude that it must be because he simply doesn't fucking care about people that are dependent on welfare payments*. His entire political career has just been a front. It's probably because, as you said a few pages back, he'll be retiring soon and so doesn't need to worry about them, or himself - he really is alright Jack. The fucker.
                  I'm completely serious. If this was a priority for Labour, it would have been in their manifesto, not blurted out at the launch, making it clear that it had been completely forgotten. History is full of left wing firebrands, who talk a big game, but when the time comes turn out to be incredibly disappointing and don't do all that much. But this was the manifesto, where they generally felt free to say any old shite, and it didn't get a mention. This is bad. This is genuinely bad. If you dislike "Austerity" for any reason other than it gives you a bad feeling, this is really bad. I've already pointed out the economic mechanics of osborneism and how Austerity caused such pain. If you're not even going to promise to do something directly about that pain, then what is the fucking point of pretending that you are anti-Austerity? Don't listen to the words, watch the money. Always watch the money.

                  I am worried that the only lesson that the left has taken from the last ten years is that Fiscal macro-economic stability is a big meanie and can be ignored. Rather than seeing things like osborneism as a transfer of money from the many to the few, while ignoring macro-economic stability completely which in itself is going to come back and bite everyone in the hole..

                  You're probably broadly correct; Labour could be more radical. They will be, once the next bunch come through (the other year I sat in on a Momentum meeting at 8pm on a Saturday night, with about 200 mainly younger people talking about how to develop an economics that better benefitted the working class). Corbyn and others have opened that space up, it'll take a few years of gestation. I expect the next Labour manifesto to be more radical, and the one after that to be more so, etc.
                  I'm not suggesting that they be radical. Nothing I'm talking about should not be considered radical. It's really fucking basic, and was the backbone of labour economic policy up until the death of John Smith. My point here is that the Labour Manifesto, as far as meaningful taxation policies and increases in redistribution of income, wasn't a whole heap better than the first three years of new labour, and much like new Labour made no promises to roll back the worst excesses of Tory misrule. The UK doesn't really have time to fuck around and wait for young people to come up with a new economics. You're not trying to reinvent the fucking wheel here. This is the bloody basics. These people are supposed to be "the left" battling "the centrists" and they're effectively the same fucking thing if you look past the rhetoric. Also, I very strongly suspect that there's going to be very little room for meaningful left wing politics in the UK in five years time. Economic contraction is the death of positive progressive economic policy.

                  But instead, you suggest that they start by deselecting John McDonnell - I'm afraid that your own hyperbole nearly always ends up destroying whatever arguments you have.

                  No I'm making the point that if you're going to start deselecting people on the grounds that e10 suggested, then you'd probably have to start there because the bloody glass slipper fits all too well.

                  People have to stop giving the Current Labour Leadership too much credit for being "Left wing" or lend them much in the way of support on those grounds, Because they might talk like a reheated tony Benn, but when it comes down to the economics of things, (Europe aside) they're a lot more like Tony fucking Blair.
                  Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 28-02-2019, 21:27.

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                    tldr.

                    They need to be really radical like you except in all the ways you're not radica,l because it would be financial madness.

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                      So you'd start by deselecting John McDonnell before, I dunno, Liam Byrne, cos the former isn't left-wing and/or intelligent and/or young enough?

                      Mind you, if there's going to be no left-wing politics in 5 years time, and also/therefore no time for anyone younger to come through, then there's no point in deselecting McDonnell at all...

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                        Originally posted by MsD View Post
                        The Brexit reverse-Jarrow march is a very funny idea.
                        Without knowing anything about it I genuinely thought the plan was for Remainers to march from London to Tyneside explaining to people on the way why they'd got it so wrong in the referendum.

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                          They could march to Dover and jump off the (appropriately white) cliffs, in anticipation of the country doing so.

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                            Good piece by Anthony Barnett IMO on who should- or rather shouldn't - lead the referendum campaign i(f there is one )

                            If they lead the pro-EU side in a new referendum, we will be destroyed. A well-funded alliance will deploy its expertise and, boy, will they throw in everything they can, and more, to secure Brexit.

                            Their key skill is in the dark arts of voter suppression. Paul Hilder has set out an authoritative analysis of how it works. Voter suppression uses psychographic algorithms to identify key segments of the population. They are then forensically targeted with quick videos showing, for example, Blair on the People’s Vote platform and then on a ski ride in Davos, calling for a new referendum – with his net worth as the subtitle. The message: that the referendum is a rip-off and “they are all the same”. Market testing reveals what images and phrases “work”. The aim is not to convert, but to disillusion and thereby turn young voters especially into abstainers.

                            A strong rebuttal of such foul and cynical methods has a chance of defeating them. But if the images used include Mandelson on a yacht with George Osborne and the notorious Russian aluminium oligarch Oleg Deripaska, not to speak of Blair, and they are at the helm of the campaign to remain, such charges will have the sting of truth.

                            Of course, everyone must be given the opportunity to redeem themselves. At this crucial moment, the best way that current controllers of the People’s Vote can do so is to step aside.
                            we need the designated campaign to be inspired by democracy and led by the new generation. For beyond the familiar faces, new and often female leaders are emerging with the creative energy to set out a European path that backs free movement, governs migration, welcomes good regulation and secures our liberties and freedom.

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                              McDonnell's a far more important figure than Corbyn – both more flexible and more radical in his thinking and, unusually for someone in his position, a proper listener. Speaking as someone who knows him vaguely (and has a good mate who works for him), he's always struck me as far more open to new ideas and thinking than most MPs. Since the cobbled-together-on-the-hoof 2017 manifesto, McDonnell's organised scores of economics gatherings, conferences, meetings etc to look at how to build a new economy. And while we're not there yet and this might sound like waffle, just about the last person in Labour you want to get shot of if you want new thinking is him.

                              And an important semantic point: I wasn't calling for deselections, I was proposing mandatory reselection, with the election of alternative candidates if better ones are put forward. A "deselection", by contrast, is a sack first, replace second policy.

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                                Originally posted by MsD View Post
                                Nigel is leading a march from Sunderland to London.
                                The #Gammonballrun

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                                  Originally posted by MsD View Post
                                  Nigel is leading a march from Sunderland to London.
                                  Unkind souls are already suggesting he turn left at Seaham Harbour and carry on walking.

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                                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                    McDonnell's a far more important figure than Corbyn – both more flexible and more radical in his thinking and, unusually for someone in his position, a proper listener. Speaking as someone who knows him vaguely (and has a good mate who works for him), he's always struck me as far more open to new ideas and thinking than most MPs. Since the cobbled-together-on-the-hoof 2017 manifesto, McDonnell's organised scores of economics gatherings, conferences, meetings etc to look at how to build a new economy. And while we're not there yet and this might sound like waffle, just about the last person in Labour you want to get shot of if you want new thinking is him.

                                    And an important semantic point: I wasn't calling for deselections, I was proposing mandatory reselection, with the election of alternative candidates if better ones are put forward. A "deselection", by contrast, is a sack first, replace second policy.
                                    If to illustrate that in the context of this thread, McDonnell probably would have backed a People's Vote six months ago if not for collective responsibility.

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                                      And they said Momo was a hoax:

                                      http://twitter.com/BootstrapCook/status/1101413185620459520

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                                        Grayling gave Eurotunnel £35m after the ferry thing. The NAO have put the cost of his MOJ fuckups at £500m.

                                        And he'll never, ever, face any kind of censure for it.

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                                          And yet this is all small beer compared to Grayling's enduring sleeper hit, the privatisation of probation services, still his biggest policy calamity

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                                            The NI-RoI fishing dispute has been resolved for now, but will take the Dáil some time to restore the status quo ante.

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                                              Bit of a row about nothing, if there's never going to be a hard border
                                              Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 01-03-2019, 13:29.

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                                                Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                                                Peter Hitchens is aging badly.

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                                                  Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                                  tldr.

                                                  They need to be really radical like you except in all the ways you're not radica,l because it would be financial madness.
                                                  Jesus Christ boss. What the hell is that supposed to mean? The thing I'm pointing out is really basic, is super traditional, and should be fundamental to every labour party supporter. That it's not a priority for the current labour party is telling, and worrying. But not as telling and worrying as people not noticing or caring about this, while having a massive bigend-littleend argument about who is left wing and right wing, in a form of socialism that doesn't seem to involve the taxation and redistribution of income. This isn't radical at all, and that something so fundamental has basically been entirely left out is a bit of a betrayal tbh, and a clear illustration of where priorities really lie, and how far to the right the UK political window has moved.

                                                  This promise repeated just before christmas, not to raise tax on anyone earning less than £80k needs a bit of a closer examination. People in the top half of the income distribution in the UK simply don't pay very much tax. Median earnings in the UK are £30K. On that you pay £3,600 in tax and £2600 in NI, giving you an effective tax rate of 21%. A single person who earns £50k a year Pays £8,300 in income tax, and £4,600 in national insurance, giving you an effective tax rate of 26%. Someone earning an equivalent €58k a year in ireland pays 33%. Someone earning £80K in the UK pays £20,300 in income tax, and £5,200 in NI. That is an effective tax rate of 32%. That's not very high. That's a very high level of income, and a very low level of taxation for a supposedly left wing party to say. "This person is paying too much tax and we're not going to increase it" Someone earning €93k a year in ireland pays an effective tax rate of 38%. Our effective tax rates aren't very high by european standards. And this is before you get into the world of UK Tax allowances and deductions.

                                                  Whatever about the Manifesto, Labour have since then vowed not to raise taxes on anyone earning below 80K, and who knows where they stand on the Benefit cap now, but they aren't proposing to scrap universal credit. just make it work better. This is all really bad. They're at the point where they can still promise any old shite, and this is what they promise. They may as well print up "I'm with Gideon" badges. Now you may not like this. But a) this is true b) It is important c) it is relevant d) takes an axe to the left wing credentials of the current labour leadership, because it makes shit of their anti-"Austerity" platform, and makes them look very similar to Blairites, but with a different flavour of spin.

                                                  It's just something to bear in mind.

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                                                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                                    McDonnell's a far more important figure than Corbyn – both more flexible and more radical in his thinking and, unusually for someone in his position, a proper listener. Speaking as someone who knows him vaguely (and has a good mate who works for him), he's always struck me as far more open to new ideas and thinking than most MPs. Since the cobbled-together-on-the-hoof 2017 manifesto, McDonnell's organised scores of economics gatherings, conferences, meetings etc to look at how to build a new economy. And while we're not there yet and this might sound like waffle, just about the last person in Labour you want to get shot of if you want new thinking is him.

                                                    And an important semantic point: I wasn't calling for deselections, I was proposing mandatory reselection, with the election of alternative candidates if better ones are put forward. A "deselection", by contrast, is a sack first, replace second policy.
                                                    That's fair enough. But for all his chats about building a new economics, (which Gordon Brown wasn't averse to in the mid nineties) it has to be borne in mind that he's still an awful lot more like Gordon Brown than Denis Healey. Indeed rhetoric aside, in practical terms he's closer to Osborne than Brown, which is just a reflection of how far to the right UK politics has moved in the last decade, and if Labour get elected, he isn't going to have the rapidly inflating property, asset, and .com bubble that Brown had to ease things along. If labour get elected sometime soon, they're going to be facing into a bit of a fucking catastrophic nightmare.

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