The Brexit Thread

[E10 Rifle]

Why do people always assume Seamus Milne's responsible for all the "Labour Does Bad Things" stuff?

Anyhows, as I think I've said before, strategically, Labour had to at least give the appearance of exhausting all other options before opting for a second referendum (though it's long been obvious Corbs wasn't personally keen in any case), so this latest announcement is of a piece with that, really. Though the "this event proves all my opinions are correct" punditry will inevitably seek to attribute it to the TIGgers or the polls or whatever. Maybe he just changed his mind after reading Additya Chakrabortty's piece yesterday. Who knows, or cares?

Meanwhile, in EU-racism news, a reminder that freedom of movement is less applicable to poorer, browner people:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ants-in-africa

[ad hoc]

Someone pointed out to me at the weekend that there were fewer than 1000 hours until Brexit. It's now fewer than 750

[Snake Plissken]

As I said, all it took was a chunk of the party walking out, and a weekend of opinion polls showing the labour party in the mid twenties, for them to eventually come around to holding a people's vote.

[Johnny Velvet]

An election to decide who is the new leader of the Labour Party is called. Jeremy Corbyn wins by a landslide.

Centrists: "Fuck, Corbyn?! This is outrageous. This will reduce Labour to little more than a party of protest and guarantee a Conservative government for generations. Shame on every single one of the children and spoiled teenagers who've commandeered a once-great party. It's all just a way of saying 'Fuck you, Mum and Dad!' for them. If only Corbyn had told them all that the way forward was to be more like the Conservatives but politely ask for more money from big business. This is all his fault."

A referendum is called to decide on the UK's membership of the EU. Remain loses.

Centrists: "Fucking Corbyn, that pathetic fucking loser. He deliberately ran a bad campaign because he's a relic of the Cold War who thinks the EU is a capitalist plot. If he'd campaigned passionately then everyone in the regions who've benefitted so much from EU membership would have been reminded of that fact. This is all his fault."

A general election is called to secure an overwhelming parliamentary majority for the Conservatives so that they have the authority to implement the Brexit vote. It results in a hung parliament.

Centrists: "Fucking Corbyn again man, he's up against the WORST PRIME MINISTER EVER and he still doesn't win. If Labour had put someone presentable up against her, someone with a good PPE degree and who hadn't spent their political careers campaigning for nonsense like Palestinian rights, Irish unification, abolition of Apartheid they'd have won and Brexit would be reversed. This is all his fault."

The Brexit negotiation process proves tortuous with humiliations inflicted upon the Conservatives and their leader with an almost ritual frequency. Polls still show a divided public with no overwhelming desire to reverse the decision to Leave.

Centrists: "Fucking Corbyn. He should be spending every minute of every day he's in parliament hammering home to the government just how horrible Brexit is going to be for the British economy and demanding a second referendum. So what if loads of Labour constituencies voted Leave? They're full of ignorant proles. They know fuck all about how the world works. They don't know about all the good work the EU does, like that little agreement they came to with Libya, to keep controls on migration. If he had any sense Corbyn would be shouting from the rooftops about how life in Burnley is about to resemble Mad Max after March 2019. But, no, he's never going to call a second referendum. This is all his fault."

A group of disillusioned Labour MPs split from the party to form a new "private company", immediately damaging Labour's chances of winning a general election and threatening a Conservative majority for some time to come.

Centrists: "Look, they have a right to protest."

Labour, after months of deliberation including an attempt to force a general election to overturn the Conservative government, finally announce their support for a second referendum where Remain will be on the ballot.

Centrists: "FUCKING CORBYN FUCKING FUCK TOSS FUCKING CORBYN FUCKING FUCKADFDSFKJDSFGJKDLAHKGDSGDS:LJHDSKJGHJKLDSG:HJDS NGVDHG"

[DCI Harry Batt]

So May is going to make three "commitments":

1- "meaningful vote" by 12 March
2- If that vote falls, a vote on 13th on "no deal"
3 - if that vote falls, a vote on extending past 29 March

[DCI Harry Batt]

I'm still unsure as to why anyone would treat a May "commitment" with anything other than contempt.

[ad hoc]

I'm still unsure as to why anyone would treat a May "commitment" with anything other than contempt.

Exactly

[E10 Rifle]

Yeah, she's been in contempt of parliament, and democracy, for months.

[Nefertiti2]

Still the Sage of Cahir will be able to blame that too on Corbyn.

[ursus arctos]

I had the same question as E10 about Milne.

In particular, is there any reason to be so certain that he was the source of the anti-Thornberry spin yesterday?

[ad hoc]

I had the same question.

[Nefertiti2]

So does former Corbyn aide Matt Zarb Cousin

https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1100380458347610112

[Nefertiti2]

Whilst Emily Thornberry (Shadow Foreign Secretary) has also been clear

https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1100193863988334593

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

So you were going to explain how the remarks you made were true, but failed.

Oh come on. They voted against the Withdrawal agreement, not because it was bad or any other valid reason, but because it didn't have a customs union in it, (Which was never going to be in the withdrawal agreement by definition) which is either a dishonest, or stupid reason to vote against the withdrawal agreement. It's one or the other. Then once that was voted down, they put forward their own Unicorn version of brexit. (Please explain to me what aligned with the Single market means, or a say in the customs Union) and that was voted down. They Put down a motion of no confidence in the Govt to bring about a general election. and that didn't work. At that point, they were supposed to move directly on to calling for a second referendum, and try and push for that as strongly as they could in the limited time available before no deal. Instead they did nothing for five weeks, ate up half the time available, and their brexit policy was this mess of bullshit, that they're going to push again today.

Now if you want to have a second referendum, there are a couple of things you need to do. Firstly you need to frame your push properly. You're not ignoring the will of the people, you're asking a very different question. The First referendum was "do you want brexit?" The Second referendum is "Well this is brexit, do you still want it?" This is a much easier position to push, as it makes the actual holding of a referendum seem much more reasonable. This is clearly not what anyone was promising back in 2016, and you're not rerunning the same question. (No deal needs to be on this ballot btw. Those people need to lose publicly and be seen to lose)

Now that the framing is done, you say to the govt that you will vote for the withdrawal agreement, in return for a referendum to confirm it, and that this is the only way that she will get the 100+ Mps needed to vote for the WA. She's going to say no initially, but ultimately has no option because you're going to use this offer to slowly strip mps out of her party, until they lose their majority and you get your election. In order for a) her to be able to ultimately accept this b) to enable you to get tories afraid of no deal to ultimately support it, you have to construct this in a way that they can possibly support it.

You don't do that by ignoring the bit about the framing, and start shouting about "Avoiding a damaging Tory Brexit" right from the off. How the fuck is any tory MP minded to support this as a way out of the mess supposed to swallow that? Save that for the Fucking referendum. There will be plenty of time for that then. Honestly How on earth is any tory MP supposed to be able to support this idea? It's almost like they're trying to guarantee that they lose any possible parliamentary vote. Whether it is through Rank Incompetence, Crushing stupidity or brazen duplicity, it's a fucking mess, a complete fucking mess.

Maybe the Conference motion should have included a clause about acting in good faith.

[ad hoc]

List of people or groups in some way complicit in or responsible for the current clusterfuck, in order of their levels of responsibility

1. David Cameron
2. Theresa May
3. High profile campaigners for Brexit (Johnson, Gove, Farage)
4. The extreme right wing media (Mail, Telegraph, Express)
5. The BBC
6. The ERGs, especially that pathetic streak of piss, Rees Mogg
7. Everyone who voted for Brexit in the referendum
8. Everyone who could have voted in the referendum but didn't
9. The remain campaign
10. The rest of the Tory party, not mentioned already
11. The DUP
12. Weird freak Labour outliers like Kate Hoey
13. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour leadership

List of people that the loud voices on OTF blame for the current clusterfuck

1. Jeremy Corbyn

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

This whole Brexit thing is really important, isn't it? I mean, not so important that anyone should divert their energies from being 90 per cent focused on shouting down anyone who has the temerity to criticise Magic Grandad, but in comparison with everything other than shielding Magic Grandad from any hint of negative comment, it's probably pretty important.

Those outside the Corbyn cult are lucky to have TAB on this thread, who persists in delivering fair and incisive comment.in the face of a torrent of off the point ultra-defensive "ooh, I bet that 's Corbyn's fault too" knee jerk responses.

[ad hoc]

I've listed Jereny Corbyn in the group of people responsible for the Brexit mess just above your post. Does that put me in the Corbyn cult? Or is the Corbyn cult simply made up of everyone who has a vaguely nuanced view of his leadership of the Labour party?

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

List of people that the loud voices on OTF blame for the current clusterfuck

1. Jeremy Corbyn

The thing is, that is palpably false. Show me just one line, anywhere in the 541 pages of this thread, where anyone suggested that Corbyn was more, or even as much, to blame as Cameron, May or the Leave campaigners. As I've pointed out before, the discussion of May's and Cameron's fault is brief because it is so obvious and uncontroverisal, and repetition of it is pointless amongst a crowd of people who all agree on it. Discussion of Corbyn's fault is lengthy and heated because people don't agree on it. And his defenders are so fucking obsessed with defending him that they can't resist dragging him into the disucssion with gratuitous sarcastic "that's Corbyn's fault too" as a complete non-sequitur. It's become very obvious that their obsessive devotion to Corbyn swamps their concern about Brexit and how to combat it.

[Nefertiti2]

You have to call him "magic Grandad" somehow those against against Brexit find that the height of satire. They used to call him "Dear leader," but they stopped for some reason.

[Nefertiti2]

it's not 'obsessive devotion to Corbyn swamps their concern about Brexit and how to combat it." it's a recognition that the smugness of those who think the only thing wrong with the country is Brexit is what led to the current situation. Homelessness lack of security of tenure. lack of trade union rights, low pay, austerity which both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats imposed on the country, privatisation of health by education by stealth tuition fees benefit curs. lack of investment, tax avoidance , destruction of local economies, and the resulting loss of all faith in the politcal class are responsible for Brexit. Plus the end of Leveson 2 cowardice on media Ownership

The Fucking Lib Dems even called for the refereendum in order that nick Clegg could have a government car which I hope he enjoyed- because that's the only concession he managed to negotiate successfully.

[ad hoc]

Pretty much no-one on this thread is "defending" Corbyn, they're just expressing annoyance at the obsession with Corbyn that many of you have. I am prepared to believe that there is a group of people out there who see Corbyn as some kind of messiah, but I've never met any of them - in person or online. The only people I have ever discovered who are utterly obsessed with Corbyn are this group of Centrists (that's not the best word, but forgive me the shorthand). Wingco has some on his fb timeline, there are others I see on twitter and elsewhere

[E10 Rifle]

Most of the Corbyn supporters on this thread have, at various points, expressed criticism of his handling of the process. Yet to his detractors, all of us are, at all times, "hysterically defending him as part of a cult-like response". Just because his name got appropriated into a football chant at a gig a couple of years ago does not mean there's any more of a personality cult surrounding him as there was surrounding Blair, Thatcher, even Nick Clegg for a while. Go to an actual left meeting of actual left humans and you'll find Corbyn criticised constructively over all sorts of things.

[E10 Rifle]

The general thrust of all this appears to be
Leftie: "I think I can sort of see Corbyn's point on all this"
Centrist: "You fucking cheerleader cultist freak, you can't brook anything but purist praise of the Dear Leader"

[Nefertiti2]

I'd also say that Corbyn for all his faults, (and there are many)and the Labour Party he has re-energised is currently the only thing that stands between this country and its final transformation into undemocratic neo-liberal hell hole. People are already dying on the streets.

[Duncan Gardner]

I've used 'Dear Leaderene' on here as a gentle tease at Lucas, Bennett and Berry. Don't see it much from Corbyn's supporters (or opponents, tbh)