Originally posted by hobbes
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Well yeah, ever since the result there's been a concerted attempt by many oft-heard voices to make this Tory-initiated and Tory-run shitshow all about Corbyn's culpability. I'll happily stop making barbs about it if all those noises-off were a little less relentless.
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Moaning about the Labour leadership for precisely the reasons highlighted in that Joan Twelves letter which ad hoc posted. I'm happy to let that (comradely language aside) speak for me, along with pretty much everything Berbaslug has said on this thread.
What is striking is that whenever a centrist makes pretty much exactly the same points that Joan Twelves has made, the reaction is not to consider those points on their merits, but to regard the substance of the issues as entirely secondary to, and trivial in comparison to, the need to defend Corbyn in the interminable internal Labour conflict, and consider all such criticism as motivated not by horror at the disaster of Brexit, but by an anti-Corbyn agenda.
To repeat again, this is not about sodding Corbyn and whether the useless posturing ideologue stays or goes as Labour leader. As a Lib Dem I couldn't care less about that. It's about Brexit. The tedious intra-Labour squabble should go on a different thread.
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The SNP, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the Greens don't have all that much say in Brexit either. But I'd rather be in their shoes in the future than Labour's, when Brexit's about as popular as invading Iraq is now.
SNP-LD=PC-Gn- Well we always said it would be shit, and we could tell the public were turning against it, so we took a principled stand for a referendum...
Lab- We tried to get a stong single market deal and customs union.
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The SNP's position would be the same as Labour's is if they had the same number of seats, in the same areas.
I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.
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Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.
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Originally posted by E10 Rifle View PostWell yeah, ever since the result there's been a concerted attempt by many oft-heard voices to make this Tory-initiated and Tory-run shitshow all about Corbyn's culpability. I'll happily stop making barbs about it if all those noises-off were a little less relentless.
I'm guessing about how Brexit plays in the future, of course.
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Well I've only intermittently dipped into this thread in recent months, so am going more on what I encounter elsewhere. I do think this thread would benefit from having the odd Leaver on it though – we've not even got any Lexiters – to sharpen the collective mind. Is Luke R still about these days?
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Stopping Brexit is something that can only be done, if at all, by collaboration between opposition MPs and Tory backbench Remainer rebels. It may not be achievable. But that's no excuse for not trying. There is no option for Labour that isn't going to piss somebody off, whether it's the masses of young Remainers swooning over Corbyn at Glastonbury, or the Leavers amongst the Labour vote. But he could perhaps, just possibly consider doing the right thing. And the right thing is as described by Twelves in that letter on the previous page of this thread. it's not "easy", but it's not rocket science either.
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Originally posted by E10 Rifle View PostThe SNP's position would be the same as Labour's is if they had the same number of seats, in the same areas.
I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.
Admittedly, this hunch of mine hasn't been borne out by polls (except maybe a couple of very recent ones, too early to say what they mean).Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 12-02-2019, 17:27.
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- Mar 2008
- 18780
- Revelling In The Hole
- England, Chelsea and Tooting and Mitcham. And Surrey CCC. And Wimbledon Dons Speedway (RIP)
- Nairn's Cheese Oatcake
Originally posted by E10 Rifle View PostWell I've only intermittently dipped into this thread in recent months, so am going more on what I encounter elsewhere. I do think this thread would benefit from having the odd Leaver on it though – we've not even got any Lexiters – to sharpen the collective mind. Is Luke R still about these days?Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 12-02-2019, 17:56.
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- Mar 2008
- 18780
- Revelling In The Hole
- England, Chelsea and Tooting and Mitcham. And Surrey CCC. And Wimbledon Dons Speedway (RIP)
- Nairn's Cheese Oatcake
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View PostPs isn't rocket science straightforward...
Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 12-02-2019, 18:07.
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I reserve my anger for Corbyn and LabourLbecause i expect so much more from them than the Tories. I am fully aware the Tories caused this mess, i loathe them, their xenophobic hordes, their Little Englanders twats and all the rest. I just feel let down by Labour.
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Interesting from Simon Wren-Lewis.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/201...-decision.html
The number of leavers expecting to be better off from Brexit now down to 26%. In November it was 39%.
As Wren Lewis has said before, Corbyn rescued Labour from going all in on austerity when it was getting unpopular. Shame that Labour are going all in on Brexit when it looks like it's going to get unpopular. Sure, there are "cultural" Brexiters who won't shift, but the fact remains- lots of Brexiters expected to be better off, and the Leave campaign knew it couldn't win without that.
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Rocket science laws:-
A body will continue to be at rest or in uniform motion unless a force acts on it
Force is mass times acceleration
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction [one of the most famous phrases in science]
The equation versions are not quite as pithy as E=mc^2, well at least apart from law 2 (F=ma). But rocket science is this basic classical mechanics. From these, differential calculus (a tool) and a good computer to crunch the numbers (another tool, or in the early days of NASA, a woman), all trajectories can be calculated. The adjustments needed from Einsteinian gravity, G(uv) = T(uv) * (8πG / c^4) are << the classical effects that they can be ignored.
This is so much more fun to talk about than Brexit.
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BBC, bringing you the Brexit facts. Shockingly poor from Andrew Neil. Germany and France are actually slightly ahead of the UK.
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1095352820411363328
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Originally posted by Janik View PostRocket science laws:-
A body will continue to be at rest or in uniform motion unless a force acts on it
Force is mass times acceleration
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction [one of the most famous phrases in science]
The equation versions are not quite as pithy as E=mc^2, well at least apart from law 2 (F=ma). But rocket science is this basic classical mechanics. From these, differential calculus (a tool) and a good computer to crunch the numbers (another tool, or in the early days of NASA, a woman), all trajectories can be calculated. The adjustments needed from Einsteinian gravity, G(uv) = T(uv) * (8πG / c^4) are << the classical effects that they can be ignored.
This is so much more fun to talk about than Brexit.Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 12-02-2019, 23:49.
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