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    Originally posted by hobbes View Post

    Amazingly, that's the polar opposite of what has actually gone on on this thread. It's been a never ending procession of centrists moaning about the Labour leadership despite them having next to no say in matters.
    Aye

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      Well yeah, ever since the result there's been a concerted attempt by many oft-heard voices to make this Tory-initiated and Tory-run shitshow all about Corbyn's culpability. I'll happily stop making barbs about it if all those noises-off were a little less relentless.

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        Moaning about the Labour leadership for precisely the reasons highlighted in that Joan Twelves letter which ad hoc posted. I'm happy to let that (comradely language aside) speak for me, along with pretty much everything Berbaslug has said on this thread.

        What is striking is that whenever a centrist makes pretty much exactly the same points that Joan Twelves has made, the reaction is not to consider those points on their merits, but to regard the substance of the issues as entirely secondary to, and trivial in comparison to, the need to defend Corbyn in the interminable internal Labour conflict, and consider all such criticism as motivated not by horror at the disaster of Brexit, but by an anti-Corbyn agenda.

        To repeat again, this is not about sodding Corbyn and whether the useless posturing ideologue stays or goes as Labour leader. As a Lib Dem I couldn't care less about that. It's about Brexit. The tedious intra-Labour squabble should go on a different thread.

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          It's remarkable how two people can look at the same conversation and see something so totally different

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            The SNP, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the Greens don't have all that much say in Brexit either. But I'd rather be in their shoes in the future than Labour's, when Brexit's about as popular as invading Iraq is now.

            SNP-LD=PC-Gn- Well we always said it would be shit, and we could tell the public were turning against it, so we took a principled stand for a referendum...
            Lab- We tried to get a stong single market deal and customs union.

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              The SNP's position would be the same as Labour's is if they had the same number of seats, in the same areas.

              I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.

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                Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                The SNP's position would be the same as Labour's is if they had the same number of seats, in the same areas.
                [citation needed]

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                  Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post

                  I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.
                  100% this

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                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                    Well yeah, ever since the result there's been a concerted attempt by many oft-heard voices to make this Tory-initiated and Tory-run shitshow all about Corbyn's culpability. I'll happily stop making barbs about it if all those noises-off were a little less relentless.
                    There's lots of that generally, but I think on here it reflects genuine concerns (tm) about Labour, and where that might leave them in the future. What all of should do, as Etienne and you in particular have said, is that none of this is easy for Labour.

                    I'm guessing about how Brexit plays in the future, of course.

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                      Well I've only intermittently dipped into this thread in recent months, so am going more on what I encounter elsewhere. I do think this thread would benefit from having the odd Leaver on it though – we've not even got any Lexiters – to sharpen the collective mind. Is Luke R still about these days?

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                        Stopping Brexit is something that can only be done, if at all, by collaboration between opposition MPs and Tory backbench Remainer rebels. It may not be achievable. But that's no excuse for not trying. There is no option for Labour that isn't going to piss somebody off, whether it's the masses of young Remainers swooning over Corbyn at Glastonbury, or the Leavers amongst the Labour vote. But he could perhaps, just possibly consider doing the right thing. And the right thing is as described by Twelves in that letter on the previous page of this thread. it's not "easy", but it's not rocket science either.

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                          On the detail in Twelves letter: Kate Hoey is unlikely to contest the next GE even if in 2019 (she is 73).

                          Ps isn't rocket science straightforward...

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                            Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                            The SNP's position would be the same as Labour's is if they had the same number of seats, in the same areas.

                            I mean I have my criticisms of the unsteady and unconvincing way Labour has played the very bad hand it's been dealt on this, and like many of Corbyn's apparently cult-like followers, have aired them in public, but he's not the main culprit here and training your ire on him as if he is, and as if stopping Brexit is, like, Really Obvious And Easy, has served only to generate bad faith and division among Remainers.
                            Labour certainly needed to be careful- there are opportunistic opponents now supporting a referendum who'd have leapt on him as "out of touch" if he'd gone that way early. But the SNP have about the same proportion of Leave voters as Labour do, and there's a majority of Labour voters for Remain (edit) in every area. And they got a lot of tactical Remain votes last time. So I think they had to do things differently.

                            Admittedly, this hunch of mine hasn't been borne out by polls (except maybe a couple of very recent ones, too early to say what they mean).
                            Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 12-02-2019, 17:27.

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                              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                              Well I've only intermittently dipped into this thread in recent months, so am going more on what I encounter elsewhere. I do think this thread would benefit from having the odd Leaver on it though – we've not even got any Lexiters – to sharpen the collective mind. Is Luke R still about these days?
                              Funnily enough I've seen three other regular OTFers mention that they voted Leave (at least one of which is a Lexiter) and there are probably a fair few more who have chosen not to reveal how they voted. I think we can all guess why they've chosen to not get involved in the discussions.
                              Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 12-02-2019, 17:56.

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                                Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                                Ps isn't rocket science straightforward...
                                In rocket propulsion labs if someone makes an error I believe the response is, "C'mon, this isn't the Labour Party's Brexit strategy!"
                                Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 12-02-2019, 18:07.

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                                  Rocket science is relatively straightforward, yes. It's rocket engineering that's the tricky part.

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                                    I reserve my anger for Corbyn and LabourLbecause i expect so much more from them than the Tories. I am fully aware the Tories caused this mess, i loathe them, their xenophobic hordes, their Little Englanders twats and all the rest. I just feel let down by Labour.

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                                      Interesting from Simon Wren-Lewis.

                                      https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/201...-decision.html

                                      The number of leavers expecting to be better off from Brexit now down to 26%. In November it was 39%.

                                      As Wren Lewis has said before, Corbyn rescued Labour from going all in on austerity when it was getting unpopular. Shame that Labour are going all in on Brexit when it looks like it's going to get unpopular. Sure, there are "cultural" Brexiters who won't shift, but the fact remains- lots of Brexiters expected to be better off, and the Leave campaign knew it couldn't win without that.

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                                        Rocket science laws:-
                                        A body will continue to be at rest or in uniform motion unless a force acts on it
                                        Force is mass times acceleration
                                        For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction [one of the most famous phrases in science]

                                        The equation versions are not quite as pithy as E=mc^2, well at least apart from law 2 (F=ma). But rocket science is this basic classical mechanics. From these, differential calculus (a tool) and a good computer to crunch the numbers (another tool, or in the early days of NASA, a woman), all trajectories can be calculated. The adjustments needed from Einsteinian gravity, G(uv) = T(uv) * (8πG / c^4) are << the classical effects that they can be ignored.

                                        This is so much more fun to talk about than Brexit.

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                                          You'd better watch out
                                          And better not delay
                                          Janik says that F equals m times a

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                                            BBC, bringing you the Brexit facts. Shockingly poor from Andrew Neil. Germany and France are actually slightly ahead of the UK.

                                            https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1095352820411363328

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                                              Not my field, but I believe that some pretty complex mathematical analysis (fluid dynamics stuff) is involved in designing rockets so as to optimise the manner in which the fuel and the liquid oxygen combine.

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                                                Tories have started deselecting Nick Boles.

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                                                  "Tory extremists try to purge gay cancer survivor MP" said no newspaper, at all.

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                                                    Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                                    Rocket science laws:-
                                                    A body will continue to be at rest or in uniform motion unless a force acts on it
                                                    Force is mass times acceleration
                                                    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction [one of the most famous phrases in science]

                                                    The equation versions are not quite as pithy as E=mc^2, well at least apart from law 2 (F=ma). But rocket science is this basic classical mechanics. From these, differential calculus (a tool) and a good computer to crunch the numbers (another tool, or in the early days of NASA, a woman), all trajectories can be calculated. The adjustments needed from Einsteinian gravity, G(uv) = T(uv) * (8πG / c^4) are << the classical effects that they can be ignored.

                                                    This is so much more fun to talk about than Brexit.
                                                    Don't forget the Rocket equation, first derived in 1813, and independently again in 1863 by english people, but only really becoming popular when rederived by the russian Tsiolovsky in 1903. It's the Engineering side that is more challenging. For anyone who wishes to take a break from brexit, and has a moderate level of chemistry from School, I could recommend a read of Ignition! a history of the development of rocket fuel which is an awful lot more amusing than you would have thought possible. The pioneers of rocketry were....... brave, and this guy can write.
                                                    Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 12-02-2019, 23:49.

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