The Brexit Thread

[Tubby Isaacs]

In the government analysis, Norway (which seems to be the opposition's policy, albeit being set out in the style of an Inspector Morse crossword) is still absolutely dreadful for various "heartlands".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967

North East England loses 3 percent of GDP over 15 years. And I'd guess the regional average hides a fair bit of pain. This week a report by the Centre for Cities (to know great surprise) showed that the city of Manchester was pulling further ahead of surrounding towns. Jon Trickett and Ian Lavery seem to be carrying the flag for Labour Leave voters. I'd be worried enough about this pre-existing trend if I were them. Trickett's Hemsworth and Lavery's Wansbeck contain very poor areas near Leeds and Newcastle respectively. Want to stick Brexit on top of that?

[Snake Plissken]

Brexit. Is. Not. Labours Fault.

Labour. Cannot. Stop. Brexit.

Is it really so fucking difficult to understand?

[Diable Rouge]

Brexit. Is. Not. Labours Fault.

Labour. Cannot. Stop. Brexit.

Is it really so fucking difficult to understand?

But they will ultimately decide the softness or hardness of Brexit through their votes.

[Snake Plissken]

No, they won't.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Labour may or may not be able to stop Brexit, in conjunction with the other non-Tory/DUP parites and with the significant number of Tory Remainer rebels, who collectively would have a majority in the absence of the Labour Brexiters such as Hoey, Flint, Skinner et al. Snake can shout as many times as he likes that Labour "can't stop Brexit", that doesn't make it true. The truth is, they won't know unless they try.

The shame and disgrace of it is that Corbyn is not even trying to stop Brexit, apart from a half-hearted token effort or two. Because, just as much as May, he totally buys into (a) the lies about the "will of the people" and (b) the fantasies about what kind of Brexit is possible. The Labour leadership have absolutely no excuse for letting the majority of their voters and their members down by colluding in Brexit as they are doing, even if the Tories and the Labour Brexiter rebels are even worse.

Labour's excuses are pathetic.

[Snake Plissken]

Labour may or may not be able to stop Brexit, in conjunction with the other non-Tory/DUP parites and with the significant number of Tory Remainer rebels, who collectively would have a majority in the absence of the Labour Brexiters such as Hoey, Flint, Skinner et al. Snake can shout as many times as he likes that Labour "can't stop Brexit", that doesn't make it true. The truth is, they won't know unless they try.

If only they had tried

To deprive May of a majority in the General Election
To extend Article 50
Get a second referendum
Vote down Mays deal
Get a vote of No Confidence in the Government

But seeing as they didn't, we'll never know.

(Sub: Please check)

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I don't see "Have brexit policy not based on fantasy, delusion or different flavour cake."

[Snake Plissken]

Yeah, that would be the proposal that the EU received with a favourable reaction a few days ago...

[steveeeeeeeee]

I think that was mentioned a few days ago.

Could someone confirm my interpretation of this is right? The withdrawal would get voted through because Labour MPs would give May the majority she needs. Then, during the 2 years it takes to negotiate a deal, we also build up to a referendum on whether we accept the deal or just stay in the EU, which I presume would stop the likes of Rees-Mogg and other hard-liners sabotaging the whole thing?

Seems workable, but what a colossal waste of time, effort and money this whole thing would be if the country chose to stay in the EU at the end of it all?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Where did they say "have nearly all the Single Market without freedom of movement, and a vote on trade deals"? That's Labour policy, whatever ambiguous stuff they stick in a letter.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Could someone confirm my interpretation of this is right? The withdrawal would get voted through because Labour MPs would give May the majority she needs. Then, during the 2 years it takes to negotiate a deal, we also build up to a referendum on whether we accept the deal or just stay in the EU, which I presume would stop the likes of Rees-Mogg and other hard-liners sabotaging the whole thing?

Seems workable, but what a colossal waste of time, effort and money this whole thing would be if the country chose to stay in the EU at the end of it all?

That might be right. My understanding is that the referendum comes now, with the referendum on the WA v Remain, and MPs promising to vote for the WA if it wins.

[Tubby Isaacs]

A party who oppose Brexit- the SNP. With about the same number of Leave voters as Labour. Not paying any obvious cost in support now, and banking "we told you it would be shit and tried to stop it" for the future.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yeah, that would be the proposal that the EU received with a favourable reaction a few days ago...

Is that the proposal where they dropped their six tests, and didn't call for a second referendum?

[Snake Plissken]

Cool. When can I vote for them?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is that the proposal where they dropped their six tests, and didn't call for a second referendum?

And, as I read it, meaningful opposition to the WA. Have I missed something?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

This was obviously the clause in the Conference motion that was written in invisible ink.

[Tubby Isaacs]

It's not a tory policy. It's a Gordon Brown policy from the never ending asset boom of 2006, and implemented in 2008 just as everything really went to hell. Any party hinting at removing it will lose 200 seats at the next election. it's going to require complete bankruptcy to get out of it.

It's not a Brown policy. There may or may not have been generous pension increases then- Brown was badly bruised by a fuss about a "75p pensions rise" years before- but they were judgements made every year, rather than legislated for.

The "lock" was put forward by the Lib Dems in the Coalition. Cameron must have laughed his arse off if this was there idea of driving a hard bargain, and presumably hit them back with something that would destroy their base, which they agreed to.

[ad hoc]

You're wasting your time Snake By now you surely must realise that Brexit is all Labour's fault . Holding the referendum setting the question, promoting (and lying about) leave, negotiating with Brussels, all of it.

[hobbes]

It's not a tory policy. It's a Gordon Brown policy from the never ending asset boom of 2006, and implemented in 2008 just as everything really went to hell

It's was a tory policy started in 2010. What are you going to try to erroneously blame on Labour next? Mourinho's management of Man Utd? The Boer War? Single Use plastics? Brexit?

[hobbes]

Oh no. You already did the last one.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Well I've learned a lesson about not asking google.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

You're wasting your time Snake By now you surely must realise that Brexit is all Labour's fault . Holding the referendum setting the question, promoting (and lying about) leave, negotiating with Brussels, all of it.

Labour didn't cause Brexit, but not only have the failed to provide an opposition to it, their leadership seems to be an active barrier to an opposition.

[SouthdownRebel]

Well I've learned a lesson about not asking google.

Berba, this is a better explainer. Labour committed to relink pensions to earnings but the triple lock was not their doing.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Labour didn't cause Brexit, but not only have the failed to provide an opposition to it, their leadership seems to be an active barrier to an opposition.

This! This! Why is that so difficult for the defensive Corbynites on here to grasp? The fact that someone else (the Tories, the DUP and the Hoey & Flint gang) is even more culpable does not let Labour off the hook. The expression "straw man" has been hugely overused on here in the past, but it has never fitted anything better than ad hoc's sarcastic message above to Snake that he ought to realise Brexit is "all Labour's fault". I mean, if someone gets run over by a speeding motorist while I'm walking by, it;s not "all my fault", but that doesn't excuse me not bothering to call an ambulance.

[hobbes]

As a Lib Dem, you'd have been driving the car.