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    The BBC earlier went with Frank fucking Field, a man who has never knowingly been on the right side of an argument.

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      The Labour policy has a fatal flaw: if the EU calls the UK's bluff on freedom of movement and refuses to agree, Labour will cut off its nose to spite it's face by withdrawing from the single market. The policy relies on bluffing with a weak hand, with disastrous consequences if the bluff fails. Why should the EU fold? And it says immigration matters more than the single market, which is a morally bankrupt position.

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        I don't think it is much more than an indication to all concerned that Labour are more conciliatory towards the EU than Davies putting out embargoed press releases about "stepping up the pressure". No, it isn't realistic but it is a step.

        Also "Not leaving the Single Market but controlling immigration" was promised by a number of Brexiteers, including Hannan.

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          All the Labour Brexiters seem to be getting a run out. John Mann and Hoey have been spotted.

          We're missing the Lexiters Skinner and Hopkins, but maybe they've clocked now that they were had.

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            Who would ever have thought David Davis MP would turn out to be a bigger arsehole than David Davies MP?

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              He's the prick who wants all translation services to the cops scrapped. Wouldn't be problematic at all in terms of natural justice. If bloody foreigners can't speak the language they obviously have no right to be able to communicate with the filth should they need to report a crime.

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                Nah.

                He's the prick that thinks not talking to Juncker is a strong and viable negotiating strategy.

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                  Yep I was meaning the Non Minister David. Has that stupid weekend warrior somehow in charge of our future fuck David actually refused to speak to Juncker? If the rumours are true they could at least make small talk on their favourite wines and single malts.

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                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                    All the Labour Brexiters seem to be getting a run out. John Mann and Hoey have been spotted.

                    We're missing the Lexiters Skinner and Hopkins, but maybe they've clocked now that they were had.
                    Did Skinner actually come out for Brexit before the vote. I do find him a tedious old fool, but he didn't go Full Hooey did he?

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                      He did.

                      It's funny that Mann and Skinner both had big swings against them, despite their Kipperism.

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                        Fuckin pantomime leftism. When he wasn't the wizened old prophet of and sole representative of the non metropolitan proletarian left, just one among many, was he such a bore and jester? Ignore the more "robust" views, give him a pat on the head. What a terrible fate for a socialist, to become a National Treasure.

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                          Tony Benn was very wary of that "cuddly old socialist" thing. He managed to achieve it nonetheless.

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                            Parliamentary leftists have been Pantomime throughout my lifetime. Defensive, doctrinaire, chippy, solipsistic, refusing to learn from experience or take advice. Yet the intellectual left can still produce great stuff and is a vital voice.

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                              Hmmm. This line crops up in the FT's latest Brexit negotiations piece, but it's not clear who's supposed to have floated it.

                              Transition payments of around €10bn a year net would cover the short-term black hole in the EU budget, while allowing Britain to cast them as the cost of an implementation period and trade relationship, rather than as old debts.

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                                I'm not sure the backbench loons are going to go for that.

                                Some fuss in the fact Barnier is getting paid a lot more than Davis. That's what sharing the bill 27 ways can do for you.

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                                  Well, the weird thing is that as I read that FT line, it's suggesting the full "bill" would be paid as Britain's budget contributions (grants if you prefer) during the transition period. In other words, we'd be getting EEA (or something like it) membership for free on the back of paying the existing bill. Or, looking at it the other way, there'd be no bill, only EEA grants. Which to me seems like a harder pill for the EU to swallow than anyone but the looniest of Brexiters. I mean, the EU's baseline position, not without justification, is that there's a bill (quantum to be negotiated on agreed calculation principles) and that any single market membership would also require payments.

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                                    Yeah, that's true. And perhaps some payment for membership of whatever trade area emerges from the negotiations?

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                                      Maybe the EU will do like that bike shop offering an invoice for the amount you told your partner you would be spending on a bike rather that what you actually spent.

                                      A country run for the benefit of a few headbangers and rw tabloids....

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                                        In other news, Japan have told us they're too busy working on their trade deal with the EU.

                                        Next week, India says, yeah we'll have a deal. Now about those million visas...

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                                          So, when debating with the Maugham's and Adonis's on the Twitter, there's a fairly constant call from they/their supporters of the 'Labour's new stance is not enough/best thing is to stop Brexit/we should Remain' variety. I keep asking them what do they mean by that, but the best reply I've had is that 'we need a 2nd referendum' (without giving a date when it could happen, what would be the terms, and why it would be taken on board by the EU27).

                                          I know Twitter isn't the best place for detailed argument, so I've asked to be pointed to more detailed critiques as to how - rather than just endlessly pointing out it is/is going to be shit - we could 'just Remain/stop Brexit'; what would be the process and timetable, how does it impact upon A50, how it could work practically and politically, now*. Honestly, no one replies. And it's really fucking me off - the worst kind of head-in-the-sand, la-la-la shit that it looks like is just going to plague us for years.

                                          So, as OTF is a forum for intellectual and intelligent discussion, can anybody help me?

                                          * As opposed to a few years time, when we should rejoin anyway, as soon as we can.

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                                            Have a soggy biscuit Brexit, SM and CU, fuck sake anything else will bring back that lovely 80s feeling of no fucking investment whatsoever, closures on the news every night, only trade deals they can get will make things worse. It's a shit sell to idiots that Brexit means being Norway at the very very least, but the GFA and no chance of a differentiated Brexit makes this the only choice possible. Unless 80s acceptable levels of Nordie violence could be tolerated once the border and cuts from the U.K. not a pot to piss in pot rots the North's barely there economy.
                                            Last edited by Lang Spoon; 29-08-2017, 19:35.

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                                              This isn't what you want johnr but does anyone think a 2nd referendum would go a different way?

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                                                Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                                So, when debating with the Maugham's and Adonis's on the Twitter, there's a fairly constant call from they/their supporters of the 'Labour's new stance is not enough/best thing is to stop Brexit/we should Remain' variety. I keep asking them what do they mean by that, but the best reply I've had is that 'we need a 2nd referendum' (without giving a date when it could happen, what would be the terms, and why it would be taken on board by the EU27).

                                                I know Twitter isn't the best place for detailed argument, so I've asked to be pointed to more detailed critiques as to how - rather than just endlessly pointing out it is/is going to be shit - we could 'just Remain/stop Brexit'; what would be the process and timetable, how does it impact upon A50, how it could work practically and politically, now*. Honestly, no one replies. And it's really fucking me off - the worst kind of head-in-the-sand, la-la-la shit that it looks like is just going to plague us for years.

                                                So, as OTF is a forum for intellectual and intelligent discussion, can anybody help me?

                                                * As opposed to a few years time, when we should rejoin anyway, as soon as we can.
                                                Yeah, I think you've got a point there.

                                                They've basically detached themselves from practical politics on the issue because of their detachment from the Corbyn-led party.

                                                Though I can't say I've got a Garry Kasparov plan. I just think it'll look like a better idea to Remain at some point, so in the meantime make a couple of shifts, like this weekend.

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                                                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post

                                                  They've basically detached themselves from practical politics on the issue because of their detachment from the Corbyn-led party.
                                                  Actually, that's probably it, thanks. And I might use that.

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                                                    Back to wonder again what the Nissan deal is about with today's news about increased output...?

                                                    Otherwise, the Maybot reboot has not fixed the issue, today's round of questions was like listening to her before election. With added bonus that rather than apologising for the foreign students mess, she is now saying it is proof her policies worked.

                                                    I really wish there was an option for the EU to expel the UK as only the most drastic measures are going to allow this country to move on I suspect...

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