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    Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post


    That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesnít exist, right?
    No, the unicorn is making a customs union conditional on joint decision making over trade deals, and linking the "relationship with the single market" to freedom of movement.

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      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
      I'm not necessarily demanding he leads it. He just has to stop opposing it. He can remain as mute and inert as he fucking likes.
      But that's exactly what he is doing.

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        He isn't. He and his close associates keep popping up with stuff pouring water on a referendum. I don't think this means all that much difference though now.

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          Sure some associates are more sceptical than others, but some are more positive than others, notably McDonnell. Again, it's about trying to walk the tightrope of avoid antagonising Brexiters while keeping Remainers onside. The policy remains the same, that a referendum isn't ruled out.

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            Well that's going to be a neat trick to sustain. It sounds like a perfectly sensible path forward to me and not like an episode of Father Ted. Why not try to explain to the brexiteers that this is going to be the end of their world. It's hard to see how the UK is going to be able to keep its absurd pension escalator, or NHS if they leave the customs union.

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              Corbyn wouldn't even say whether Labour would support Remain in a referendum last month. That's a bit more than sceptical. That's him personally putting another barrier in the way.

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                It's very difficult to sustain of course. Almost as difficult to sustain as the Tories pretending to be the party of sound governance and economic competence while havering between shooting the country in the foot and the head. Labour just need to hope that the Tories implode first. There are plenty of people out there telling Brexiters about how terrible it's going to be. I honestly don't think the Labour front bench doing the same thing is going to help. They have (with the sole exception of Williamson, I think) been telling everyone that No Deal will be bloody awful, but it doesn't seem to have shaken support for no deal. These people aren't listening, and telling people they are wrong and stupid or foolish dupes has never been a strong persuasion tool.

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                  Hmm, on its own I can see why you might wish to avoid being tied down to a hypothetical about a hypothetical, but it's only a hypothetical about a hypothetical because the Labour party still clings to its bullshit position.

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                    The Tories donít really have to sustain anything. Their new leader will be offered up as a change candidate.

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                      Why not try to explain to the brexiteers that this is going to be the end of their world. It's hard to see how the UK is going to be able to keep its absurd pension escalator, or NHS if they leave the customs union.
                      Because they don't care or don't believe it. Experts and project fear, innit? There's genuinely no talking to the fuckers. Believe me, I've tried.

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                        Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                        The Tories donít really have to sustain anything. Their new leader will be offered up as a change candidate.
                        Yeah, so was Iain Duncan Smith.

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                          Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                          Because they don't care or don't believe it. Experts and project fear, innit? There's genuinely no talking to the fuckers. Believe me, I've tried.
                          well you can only try. Some will understand, and go along with you, particularly if you point out that they're blaming the EU for the actions of the tories, Sure some of them aren't going to be convinced, and they may never vote for you again, and you just have to have the bravery to say fuck them. Any broad church party with people who think like this is only going to be a coalition of shit.

                          Most people just want this bullshit to stop, and the only way for it to ever end is a referendum that results in staying. Sure it might be hell for six months, but then it would be over. The govt will be able to do something other than cunt on pointlessly about brexit.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Etienne View Post

                            Yeah, so was Iain Duncan Smith.
                            then they realised that there was things in their fridge with more intelligence and awareness than him, and they decided that even Michael fucking howard was a better bet.

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                              Sure, I just wanted it clear that a change doesn't necessarily produce a good result for the Tories. They were perilously close to getting Leadsom last time.

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                                You can't beat a bit of martial law during a no-deal Brexit:

                                http://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1089282356475760640/photo/1

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                                  Eh!

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                                    I think he meant to link to the second tweet in the feed.

                                    https://twitter.com/alanbell_libsol/status/1089299646881636354

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                                      Ah. Thanks.

                                      All nonsense, of course.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                        Well what is the reality based alternative other than simply voting for the withdrawal agreement. There is going to come a point in the next couple of weeks where the UK is going to have to shit or get off the pot. it is either going to have to a) embrace Hard Brexit and embark on a humiliating and destructive economic war. B) Accept Theresa May's deal or c) accept that parliament isn't going to be able to resolve this situation and put the matter to the people, in a less embarrassingly open ended referendum.

                                        If Labour don't change their position, that third option isn't even going to be on the table. That safe option of kicking to touch isn't going to be there any more.
                                        Your first-paragraph analysis is correct. That's where we're heading. That's where we've been heading since conference. That's part of the strategy, that Labour pivot to c) - but it can only happen in the next few weeks, it couldn't have happened before.

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                                          There has to be a vote to extend article 50 before c) can happen and I don't think such a vote can happen unless it's forced. May won't volunteer it, obviously.

                                          The vote also has to happen with sufficient time left for the 27 to all agree to it. One dissenting member and it's off the table.

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                                            Yeah, but in that case the government can revoke unilaterally. Ultimately it depends on whether May genuinely is willing to go "no deal". I don't think she is, but I'm far from comfortable in that. If she is, then it's a question of whether the sane Tories blink and unseat her (through supporting a VONC) or whether the Labour sensibles blink and vote for her deal.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Etienne View Post
                                              Yeah, but in that case the government can revoke unilaterally. Ultimately it depends on whether May genuinely is willing to go "no deal". I don't think she is, but I'm far from comfortable in that. If she is, then it's a question of whether the sane Tories blink and unseat her (through supporting a VONC) or whether the Labour sensibles blink and vote for her deal.
                                              I am convinced she is willing to go "No deal". She is stubborn and single-minded beyond all rationality and she sees delivering on the referendum result as her entire existence. We've seen time and time again for the past half-decade that she is willing to ignore reality and plough onwards (the post-election going to Buckingham Palace and straight out lying to the monarch and the subsequent fallout has be much underreported) as it what she thought would happen actually happened. She's more determined than even the ERG. I'm not sure what kind of -path she is, but she is it.

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                                                I'm not sure Labour has established enough of a credible and distinct position to validate voting May's deal down again, as I've said. Because the Prime Minister looks prime ministerial, it's hard for the opposition to persuade people they'd get a better deal. Do they want to be voting it down with Redwood, Johnson and Rees Mogg? I think they have to be extremely careful.

                                                But maybe that's what Lavery's People want, I don't know.

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                                                  Tubbs, your determination to pin this entire thing on Labour is remarkable.

                                                  And BTW, Theresa May couldn't look Prime Ministerial if she spent six weeks on training course called "How to look Prime Ministerial for people who absolutely couldn't look Prime Ministerial".

                                                  Comment


                                                    I don't follow your last post there Tubbs, either.

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