The Brexit Thread

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

More from Dad's Army.

https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1088775610141421568

He seems to have pushed his crayons quite far up there. You can barely see them

[Diable Rouge]

Groundhog Day.

[Diable Rouge]

It's that man again!

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1089163777256423424

[Lang Spoon]

He's some cunt. He's even a prick on Mastermind.

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1089100600573341696

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Fucking hell, Humphreys is a national embarrassment and an utter, utter cunt. That level of arrogance and historical insensitivity is barely believable. And yes, he's a smug tool on Mastermind as well. But being a twat on Mastermind just spoils a quiz show. Being an arrogant moron to the Irish will just reinforce the beliefs of every Irish anglophobe (there isn't really a word "britophobe', is there, I mean I know JH is Welsh) that we are all a bunch of imperialist cunts who think Ireland ought to be ruled from London. It's enough to make you cry in shame and frustration.

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://twitter.com/DanCardenMP/status/1088930632837795840

Wansbeck voted 56.2% Leave.

Labour in 2017 in Wansbeck got 57.3%

There's no way Lavery's voters were majority Brexit. Why are this minority so "integral to Labour thinking"?

Shouldn't this be a bit more integral?

https://twitter.com/BBCPeterH/status/1067756906582806528

[Lang Spoon]

I've been shouting this into the ether ever since John Curtice did his analysis of the vote. Very few Labour seats are in danger from leave voters.

[Diable Rouge]

Juncker quite frankly tells May that any discussion on the backstop requires a permanent customs union.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

What;'s necessary is informed analysis instead of abuse. As you don't seem to be capable of the former and overindulge in the latter I see no point in continuing to engage with you on here on this subject.

That's not abuse. It's a harsh truth, spoken plainly. The British political system isn't the sick man of europe, it's the piss soaked tramp of Europe. We've gone past the point of informed analysis. Now is the time to start fucking screaming. I read that article that Lavery wrote and he paints a vision of a wasteland britain, abandoned and underfunded by the state. A situation that is only going to be made considerably worse by any form of brexit.

Brexit itself is insane nonsense, The Tory party has completely gone over the cliff into mentally degenerate lunacy. After two years of pointless fucking around they accepted pretty much the deal as laid out by the European union 2 years ago. 200 tory mps voted in favour of it, over 100 tory MPs voted against it, because it's not the Unicorn Brexit that they promised. There's not much left to say about these people. They are beyond fucking redemption. These people are the human version of the thing that is developing in the bottom of my food recycling bin. But they currently are where they are because they are the Government, and they have to implement Brexit, and this is the Brexit that the European Union thinks you should have, and they can't deal with it.

The Labour Party, are a fucking disgrace. A fucking shambolic disgrace on Brexit. The Labour party position on Brexit is a) stupid b) dishonest c) delusional d) meaningless drivel. They are opposed to Theresa May's deal not because a) it is shit b) it is 'not what people voted for c) a clear sign that an agreed Brexit is going to be a national humiliation that bankrupts the state. No, they're against it because it doesn't include a permanent customs union. Their opposition is based on it not including a permanent customs union deal, which the EU has made extremely explicit isn't going to happen until the withdrawal agreement is passed.

Any discussion of what the Labour party is doing, has to start from the premise that their brexit position is utter Bollocks, that is utterly unsustainable, or undeliverable, and is doomed to lead to a hard brexit under its own terms. Now maybe this might seem like good parliamentary Tactics to people who focus too much on the westminster bubble, but it is not a sustainable position, and we have passed the point where it needs to change.

The tories are just a party of psychopaths who are only interested in transferring wealth from the bottom to the top They don't care about anyone. The Labour party on the other hand is supposed to worry about the welfare of all, and helping those in need, which in the UK is most people. It is utterly insane for a party that is nominally of the left to support something that is going to rain shit primarily on their supporters. There is not one ill affecting the people of Britain that is not going to be made worse by Brexit .

The Labour party has three options at this point. a) maintain their current position and go right over the cliff edge into hard brexit B) Cave and support the withdrawal agreement as it stands c) say that the situation is hopeless, that Brexit was sold as a lie, and is undeliverable, and ask the people to do what parliament can't, and choose between a) Economic War, b) the horrible death by a thousand cuts of reality Brexit or c) vote to stay in the European Union.

There is no point referring back to the conference motion for guidance because it is essentially open ended and leaves open the option of calling for a second referendum. However now that the time has come the glorious leader remains permanently fixed to his fucking nonsensical position, while his close supporters either say that a second referendum is impossible because it would take too long (B. Gardiner) or it would upset people who don't want to be asked a second time if they're sure about what appears to be a very different thing than they voted for. (Lavery) And it gradually seems to become clear that those who originally wanted to bring forward a motion calling for a second referendum and agreed to essentially leave it up to the leadership were fucked.

It's a fucking disgrace, and you can't justify it by referring to the reality of English politics, as though that is immutable and unchangable, and as such takes precedence over external reality. Meanwhile every day the UK moves one day closer to Economic war, with no sign of changing course

Labour have to stop thinking about a general election that may not happen for another three years, and have to start thinking about the fucking nightmare that is coming in the next few weeks. The Next election can take care of itself. If Britain leaves the EU, that's not an election that is going to be worth winning and the UK is not going to be a country fit to live in.

As I said. it's the politics of Six year olds who shove crayons up their nose.

[Etienne]

That's a lot of words to say "I disagree with Labour tactically".

[hobbes]

No, they're against it because it doesn't include a permanent customs union. Their opposition is based on it not including a permanent customs union deal, which the EU has made extremely explicit isn't going to happen until the withdrawal agreement is passed.

Erm dude. Read the post above yours.

Also I try not to get involved in this thread, because the whole thing is just too depressing. But you still, despite being reminded about a billion times, can't seem to grasp that it doesn't fucking matter what Labour want. They're not in government. They are effectively powerless in this if the DUP prop up May's zombie government. They could holler from the rooftops that they support a second referendum, but it doesn't matter. It won't happen unless the Tories say it'll happen.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

i would have thought it was more along the lines of "A lot of people reading this are going to lose their job, and your way of life is probably going to end "

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Erm dude. Read the post above yours.

Also I try not to get involved in this thread, because the whole thing is just too depressing. But you still, despite being reminded about a billion times, can't seem to grasp that it doesn't fucking matter what Labour want. They're not in government. They are effectively powerless in this if the DUP prop up May's zombie government. They could holler from the rooftops that they support a second referendum, but it doesn't matter. It won't happen unless the Tories say it'll happen.

Hobbes that article suggests that the Backstop could be "Northern Ireland only" if the UK promises to negotiate a permanent customs union in the next phase of discussions. That's not a concession, that's just rearranging some of the cosmetic details. That's not what labour want at all.

The other thing is that one of the major barriers to labour Party members having a discussion about Brexit that is based in fucking reality, is their party policy which exists in fucking unicorn Brexit fucking LaLa land. It's about to all go tits up, and the two main political parties in the UK are ramming their fingers in their ear and singing about different types of Cake .

[Etienne]

Labour don't "want" anything other than that a) the Tories take the blame for it going to shit and b) that they aren't cast as the party that tried to block Brexit. As they don't have the vote to stop Brexit that seems an entirely reasonable position. I remain unconvinced that Labour advocating a second referendum would make it more likely to happen.

[Etienne]

What Labour say they want is of course impossible and wouldn't be much good if they did get it.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Well what is the reality based alternative other than simply voting for the withdrawal agreement. There is going to come a point in the next couple of weeks where the UK is going to have to shit or get off the pot. it is either going to have to a) embrace Hard Brexit and embark on a humiliating and destructive economic war. B) Accept Theresa May's deal or c) accept that parliament isn't going to be able to resolve this situation and put the matter to the people, in a less embarrassingly open ended referendum.

If Labour don't change their position, that third option isn't even going to be on the table. That safe option of kicking to touch isn't going to be there any more.

[Eggchaser]

i would have thought it was more along the lines of "A lot of people reading this are going to lose their job, and your way of life is probably going to end "

Nonsense from experts.

Project Fear.

Scaremongering.

Traitors.

Enemies of the People.

Those who would plot like some latter day Catiline to overthrow the people's tribune.

[Etienne]

TAB, I agree with everything in your first paragraph. I remain thinking that Labour front bench pushing for a referendum makes it less likely to happen. Only May can stop Brexit now. Parliament can't force her to extend or revoke. Will she revoke if it is Corbyn's position? Very unlikely. Will she revoke if a cross bench parliamentary alliance is pushing for it and the only alternative is no deal? Conceivably.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

But the EU is only going to grant you moderately lengthy extension to hold a referendum, or a short one to push through a withdrawal agreement when there is a high probability that it will pass. The only way to build a cross party alliance for a second referendum is for the labour party to stop opposing it, and stop forcing people who want one to toe the current super-stupid party line.

[Snake Plissken]

Juncker quite frankly tells May that any discussion on the backstop requires a permanent customs union.

That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesn’t exist, right?

[Etienne]

Labour aren't opposing it though. They are supporting all the backbench bills that lead towards it. They just (have some people) say they oppose it.

[Etienne]

And again, I don't see how you square your "Tories don't give a shit about anything but power and screwing the poor" with "all that is required for a cross party alliance is Corbyn to lead it".

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I'm not necessarily demanding he leads it. He just has to stop opposing it. He can remain as mute and inert as he fucking likes. It would be mental if he were to start pushing it on any other grounds than "This is the only way out of this shit fest."

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesn’t exist, right?

It is understood that one solution discussed by senior officials would be for the backstop to be downgraded to be Northern Ireland specific, as was originally proposed by the EU, should there be a commitment from the British government to negotiate a permanent customs union with the whole of the UK.

This is not what Labour want. Labour want the customs union to be in this agreement. That's not on offer.