The Brexit Thread

[Lucy Waterman]

Jezza = harrumphing.

But yes, that would be good, wouldn't it?

[ad hoc]

See the problem here is that there are people on here, and throughout Britain who are counseling patience, or loyalty to the Party Line )

I'm not counselling patience (the panic button should be well and truly hit),and nor am I counselling loyalty to the party line, I'm just trying to see if there is a way that we can get the softest Brexit possible (I'm sort of resigned to the fact that there will be a Brexit), and the only way that this seems to be possible is to do roughly what the Labour party is doing. We certainly won;t get it through Theresa Xenophobic May and her hostile environments, and we even more certainly won't get it through Jacob Rees Goebbels. Fighting against the Tory shit in parliament is the best way to stall and hopefully stop Brexit. And really we should all be fighting and fighting hard against the Tory party and its differing versions of the same racist shit. Trying to tease apart small details of opposition policy is all very well but a complete fucking waste of time. It seems to me that the Sensibles approach is far more about sitting tight and hoping for the best (it;s the same with everything to be honest. Talk to a Sensible about the Occupation and their attitude appears to be "Well, the ideal is for Israel to end the occupation just out of the goodness of their heart". Sorry, going off topic)

[Tubby Isaacs]

A view from a Labour official appointed by Corbyn, now deleted.

[Diable Rouge]

An interactive map of each Border crossing and the number of incidents associated with each one.

[anton pulisov]

If Labour had voted May's deal through yesterday, would the Tory party have ceased to exist today? Worth contemplating.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm not counselling patience (the panic button should be well and truly hit),and nor am I counselling loyalty to the party line, I'm just trying to see if there is a way that we can get the softest Brexit possible (I'm sort of resigned to the fact that there will be a Brexit), and the only way that this seems to be possible is to do roughly what the Labour party is doing.

They aren't though. They're chucking up extra barriers to doing a soft deal- say in the customs union, state aid. That's not helping anybody at all.It's giving cover to the Tory Brexit fantasists.

[anton pulisov]

I'm not counselling patience (the panic button should be well and truly hit),and nor am I counselling loyalty to the party line, I'm just trying to see if there is a way that we can get the softest Brexit possible (I'm sort of resigned to the fact that there will be a Brexit), and the only way that this seems to be possible is to do roughly what the Labour party is doing.

But once again... what exactly is it about yesterday's deal that is not ultrasoft Brexit?

Credit to May, she was willing to throw half her own party under the bus.

[Lucy Waterman]

If Labour had voted May's deal through yesterday, would the Tory party have ceased to exist today? Worth contemplating.

I think it would have meant a very divisive leadership election for them!

The ongoing danger for Corbyn is that the Tories subsequently elect a viciously anti-Europe leader who becomes the change candidate.

[ad hoc]

But once again... what exactly is it about yesterday's deal that is not ultrasoft Brexit?

I guess we have different definitions of soft. To me any deal that tells all EU citizens living in the UK and all UK citizens living in the EU to go fuck themselves is not in the remotest bit soft

[ad hoc]

It might be soft if we accept May's red lines. But I don't, Her red lines are all about hard Brexit. It's the softest possible hard May-approved Brexit. But since May is an out and out xenophobic piece of shit, that's not saying much.

[E10 Rifle]

No customs union and an end to freedom of movement seems pretty hard to me, but May's direction of travel (don't upset the DUP, don't even talk to the leader of the oppo) suggests it's not gonna get much softer.

[anton pulisov]

I guess we have different definitions of soft. To me any deal that tells all EU citizens living in the UK and all UK citizens living in the EU to go fuck themselves is not in the remotest bit soft

Soft Brexit isn't good. It's still shite. But Soft Brexit + full rights for UK citizens in the EU + influence on single market policy... that's something that doesn't exist. If those are the things that Labour want then they should campaign to stop Brexit. They campaigned for Remain after all, for the same reasons.

May's Brexit is the softest Brexit possible. Anything less soft wouldn't be Brexit.

[anton pulisov]

No customs union and an end to freedom of movement seems pretty hard to me, but May's direction of travel (don't upset the DUP, don't even talk to the leader of the oppo) suggests it's not gonna get much softer.

Once again, May's deal de facto guaranteed the customs union. That's why the hard Brexiteers voted against it.

[ursus arctos]

That interactive map from the Irish Times is ace, especially for ms. ursus, who just got back from Donegal.

[Moonlight Shadow]

I guess we have different definitions of soft. To me any deal that tells all EU citizens living in the UK and all UK citizens living in the EU to go fuck themselves is not in the remotest bit soft

I'm not entirely sure Labour is not doing pretty much the same, except in a sligthly nicer way by not just accepting the end of FoM but welcoming it...

[ad hoc]

That may or may not be true, but I AM TALKING ABOUT THE DEAL ON THE TABLE. THE DEAL THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTS. BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Soft Brexit isn't good. It's still shite. But Soft Brexit + full rights for UK citizens in the EU + influence on single market policy... that's something that doesn't exist. If those are the things that Labour want then they should campaign to stop Brexit. They campaigned for Remain after all, for the same reasons.

May's Brexit is the softest Brexit possible. Anything less soft wouldn't be Brexit.

Whole UK Single Market in the backstop would be softer. Has Labour backed that? Don't see why not.

[Diable Rouge]

That interactive map from the Irish Times is ace, especially for ms. ursus, who just got back from Donegal.

Whereabouts, UA?

[San Bernardhinault]

Whole UK Single Market in the backstop would be softer. Has Labour backed that? Don't see why not.

Isn't that implied in the WA? No government is actually going to create a border in the Irish Sea.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I thought it was UK-wide customs arrangement, but only NI in the Single Market. As you say, no "border" in the Irish Sea.

[Moonlight Shadow]

Correct, the UK wide temporary CU was the UK biggest win in the negotiation as it happens. There is sustantially no difference with the Labour plan if you take into consideration the realistic aspects of a CU.This is why the Brexit ultras are angry because short of some unforeseen solution coming into place to deal with NI, it locks the UK into a CU that will likely carry on into the FTA that will be negotiated after the WA expires.

[anton pulisov]

That may or may not be true, but I AM TALKING ABOUT THE DEAL ON THE TABLE. THE DEAL THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTS. BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT.

That seems to be Labour policy as well.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I'm not counselling patience (the panic button should be well and truly hit),and nor am I counselling loyalty to the party line, I'm just trying to see if there is a way that we can get the softest Brexit possible (I'm sort of resigned to the fact that there will be a Brexit), and the only way that this seems to be possible is to do roughly what the Labour party is doing. We certainly won;t get it through Theresa Xenophobic May and her hostile environments, and we even more certainly won't get it through Jacob Rees Goebbels. Fighting against the Tory shit in parliament is the best way to stall and hopefully stop Brexit. And really we should all be fighting and fighting hard against the Tory party and its differing versions of the same racist shit. Trying to tease apart small details of opposition policy is all very well but a complete fucking waste of time. It seems to me that the Sensibles approach is far more about sitting tight and hoping for the best (it;s the same with everything to be honest. Talk to a Sensible about the Occupation and their attitude appears to be "Well, the ideal is for Israel to end the occupation just out of the goodness of their heart". Sorry, going off topic)

But after the vote yesterday there are only two options. Staying in the European Union, or full blown Economic war. Any other form of Brexit just got completely blown out of the water yesterday. The route to any other form of Brexit involves first agreeing to the EU's terms on your withdrawal. The UK can't even clear the first Brexit Hurdle.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Whole UK Single Market in the backstop would be softer. Has Labour backed that? Don't see why not.

well it's no more impossible than demanding a full customs union deal in the Withdrawal agreement. But if you're doing that, why not have a brexit that stipulates another three seasons of "How do you want me". The tragic premature death of the two main female actors shouldn't be a bother. Will of the people and what not.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Thanks, thought so.

Why hasn't Labour backed UK wide Single Market in the transition? Are Don Valley, Ashfield, Stoke Central etc going to rise up in insurrection?