The Brexit Thread

[Tubby Isaacs]

What is this thing with Starmer? OK, he's well-spoken and has a lovely head of hair, but surely he'd end up taking exactly the kind of flak that Corbyn does, simply by dint of having associated for so long with the Wrong Sort Of Labour.

I don't rate Starmer particularly but he doesn't have Corbyn's associations, having not even run for office till 2015.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

What is this thing with Starmer? OK, he's well-spoken and has a lovely head of hair, but surely he'd end up taking exactly the kind of flak that Corbyn does, simply by dint of having associated for so long with the Wrong Sort Of Labour.

I don't really know Labour people very well, including him (I'm increasingly detached from the political scene, I don't really know the "new" ones who emerged post Brexit). It's just that to me he comes across as s.o who would be popular with Labour voters and I dread another Tory victory at the next GEs, so anyone who can get us out of this rut is welcome, I don't really care which Labour politician. I don't think Corbyn can pull in the punters in the same way as he did last year.

[Wouter D]

Nah, the Netherlands belongs on that list. Wilders has pushed the entire political spectrum in the country to the right. The rubbish that Mark Rutte regularly spouts would have been considered beyond the pale twenty years ago.

Plus, in the latest polls you have Wilders' Party for Freedom on 18 seats and the new Forum for Democracy (Thierry Baudet's party, which is essentially Wildersism) on 16 seats. Their combined total of 34 would be equal to 23% of the 150 house seats. And, as mentioned, don't forget that the largest party (Mark Rutte's VVD) has itself solidified its grip on power by appealing to the populist-right.

Oh, C'mon. Wilders' polls have hit the rafters inbetween elections regularly in the past too, but when push comes to shove, the actual vote goes down very differently.

I am thoroughly annoyed that people keep voting for the VVD despite not being rich and selfish. However, shoving them under the category of "the populist right" is too broadbrush.

[Wouter D]

As with the ‘how did the gilets jaunes vote last time?’ material on the France thread the attempt to measure how racist the Dutch are by Wilders’ graphs seems a remarkable psephological shortsightedness.

You can make your sentence as polysyllabic as you want, but the topic was not "how racist is population x". The topic was "gains made by the populist-right throughout Europe".

[Wouter D]

Whilst I agree that Widers' vote share is down the way I read the election was a reconfiguring of votes within the three main blocs: Right, Centre and Left. The numbers have stayed pretty much the same for each but the influence of right-wing populism still remains as strong but now spread across three parties. To someone of my age (49) who remembers going to hardcore gigs in squatted venues in Alkmaar and Amsterdam (Van Halle?) the idea of the influence of the right is more difficult to comprehend than in say France or Italy. My excuse is still seeing the Netherlands through the rose-tinted idealist spectacles of my youth.

That makes a whole lot of sense, and I share your sense of disillusionment.

[Lang Spoon]

The way the bbc news is phrasing the immigration proposals of racist May is making me froth. Fuck you Kuenssberg ya posh weegie fuck. Fuck news at ten.

[Lang Spoon]

Oh good, a Speak Yr Brains from Folkestone. Hope all the interviewed have a painful death waiting in an understaffed hospital.

[Moonlight Shadow]

Sturgeon in the meantime is saying exactly what the leader of Labour should be saying about immigration...

[Pérou Flaquettes]

Oh good, a Speak Yr Brains from Folkestone. Hope all the interviewed have a painful death waiting in an understaffed hospital.

I've just watched that vox pop interview on the streets of Folkestone. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...t-six-19122018)

at 7’30:

Journalist: How do you view the proposals? (the post Brexit immigration plans)

Woman: I think we should cut them all out… (by that she meant "zero migrant" I presume).


Reminds me the vile comments (below) in one of the satirical BBC Revolting episodes about 2 yrs ago (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b087vhpz). the full script is here: https://subsaga.com/bbc/comedy/revolting/episode-1.html

The journalist (on the streets of Loughton, Essex – I watched the programme, these were real people, not actors):

(from 5’57, see script above):

Journalist: The Europeans that are here now... Should we get rid of them?

Woman: Yeah, I would, tomorrow. I’d get rid of them tomorrow. I’d put them on an island and shoot them all, myself.

Another woman: They come to this country and they're raping people and they get away with it. Bring back hanging. Hang the lot of 'em!

Another couple: If they brought back hanging, I’d like to be the person that hangs them. I couldn’t kill a dog but I could kill a migrant claiming benefits. They go out rapng and fiddling with our kids.

[Moonlight Shadow]

That's the kind of people that we must listen to apparently...

[Lang Spoon]

Sturgeon in the meantime is saying exactly what the leader of Labour should be saying about immigration...

Yeah. If the below tweet is true (and I don’t trust that source), then Labour is pure fucking pandering bullshit on FoM (and thus the Single Market and any non absolute shit Brexit). Thought Abbott was better than this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IanDunt/s...81267884056576

[Lang Spoon]

There’s plenty of racist bloody immigrants arsewipes in Scotland (even if Social Attitudes Surveys show most are voting for the Unionist Tory/Slab bloc, plenty in the Nats too (only a few percent fewer SNP voters went for Brexit than Labour UK wide)), Sturgeon still said the below. Imagine any of the Labour front bench saying something like this.


https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAle...49599425503232

[Moonlight Shadow]

Tanja Buelman on Twitter had a go at this too, there is a video of DA speech, sadly she is not being misreported.

Got to keep those legitimate concerns voters in marginals happy you know....

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/sjwrenlewis/status/1075473840342532096


They were still at it on Newsnight.

time for a sit in at the BBC, I think.

[Lang Spoon]

Newsnight are now discussing the England World Cup team as a National Unifier compared to the divisiveness of Brexit. Why the fuck don’t ye just declare UDI from the rest of the U.K.?

[Moonlight Shadow]

The best way out of this mess LS...

[Lang Spoon]

Well yeah. But that will prob need a softish Brexit if Scotland isn’t to be immediately impoverished. Rocks and hard places.

[multipleman78]

The other day, a Conservative backbencher told the leader of the SNP in the Commons to go back to Skye. There was no uproar but now Corbyn calls a Prime Minister who was doing panto jokes a stupid woman and it's as if they want parliament to cease dealing with their mess to address such a heinous crime. He said it, he then denied it regardless of the evidence. You would think the Tories would grudgingly respect his behaviour in saying he didn't do it. They are the masters of bullshit after all.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

Post-referendum I still harboured hopes of a way to stay in the EU until the election of Trump and the ensuing gains made by the populist-right throughout Europe (France, Holland, Italy, Germany and now Spain) is prompting me to worry about whether it could happen here. We had a close shave with the BNP who managed on a limited scale to draw support from outside their racist heartland - they promised to be a labour party just like your grandfather voted for. An early sign of the far-right adopting the clothing of the left to widen their appeal. The usual far-right problem of leaders who repulsed the vast majority saved as once again, though the oxygen of publicity has helped to legitimise their views to a growing minority.

[1/2]

Erm, I hate to break it to you Gert but we’ve had full-on rightwing populism for a decade in the UK. 2 things here:

#1. The drift towards rightwing populism and libertarianism has been very pregnant in the UK for a while. It’s not just a question of “We don’t have the BNP anymore, we’re all right”. UKIP registered 27% in the 2014 Europeans and them & their Tory Ukipper tub-thumping cronies were instrumental in delivering this Brexit dumbfuckery. They’ve seriously infused and contaminated UK politics with their ideology. More on this below.

#2. The political situation in the countries you’ve listed is far less dramatic I believe than here in terms of right-wing populism, except for Italy. I wouldn’t put France in it, explanation notice given in my #2 [part 2/2]. OTOH, Hungary, Austria need to be in that list, and Sweden too if I’ve read the situation correctly there, the SD made substantial gains in the 2014 and 2018 General Elections (respectively 49 seats and 62 seats out of 349) and forced the parties in power to strike a deal with their leader Jimmie Akesson until 2022 to placate and lessen their influence. I’m sure Anton will be able to explain the situation there much better than I can. Kurz the Cunt has been in power for exactly 1 year, let’s not forget this piece of Scheiße: Austria's Young Chancellor Sebastian Kurz Is Bringing the Far-Right Into the Mainstream).






#1. What’s happening in the UK under the Tories is far more worrying than what’s going on in most of the countries you mention, save Italy. Most of the Tories manifesto is very populist right, far more so that Hollande’s or Macron’s policies (since you’re mentioning France) in terms of immigration or just general politics.

Look at Brexit and how Cameron allowed that referendum on such flimsy grounds (and no voting right for Brits resident in rEU for <15 yrs, no voting right for EU residents in UK – but that right given to Commonweathers, even newly-arrived ones), if that’s not populist right or even far right, I don’t know what is.

Look at the increasingly hostile rhetoric towards foreigners in the Daily Gobshites (but also broadsheets such as ST, Rod Liddle, Farage & co) and the media in general, how Farage has been mainstreamed for instance (the cunt has his own radio slot on LBC). That’s right-wing populism of the highest calibre.

Look at people like Gove & Wilshaw (right-wing populism to please the Daily Gobshites readers, teachers became “the Blob” under Gove, reminiscent of Thatcher’s “the enemy within” or – from Wilshaw – “I know that Headteachers are on the right track when I visit schools and see that the morale is at rock bottom”, that set the tone for the Tory era in education. Ditto people like Steven Baker, Boris Johnson etc. with their constant insults to EU politicians just to pander to the frothers.

Look at the Home Office’s “hostile environment” policy, unveiled with great fanfare to the public as the panacea to fight illegal immigration. You must remember May’s “Go home” vans, well they had sod all to do with deterring actual illegal immigration of course but all to do with appealing to the electorate. That hostile environment policy of quickly came to affect everybody, not just the illegals (eg the Windrush people) but EU nationals too, and incl. EU nationals married to UK citizens who’ve spent almost all of their adult life here. And unlike many other countries (eg France in your list) even if you’re married to a UK national and have been here all your life as a third-country national OR EU national for that matter, it makes no sodding difference any longer, I should know I’ve been there and got the t-shirt.

It is particularly horrible and unfair to be told (as I was told 2 yrs ago) that you’re not entitled to UK residence even if you’ve been here for over 25 yrs, are married to a UK national, have always worked etc., just because you’ve got a “one-year gap in your NI contributions and didn’t take private healthcare insurance” (more of which below) – my case, I took a sabbatical to do volunteer work… That’s the Tory way, must be Cameron’s “Big Society” way to thank you for trying to do something positive for the community, they take away your right to apply for a residence permit while boasting to the general public about their tough stance on immigration.

I was understandably livid then but I’m not too bothered now, and the cunts have saved me the best part of £2,000 and the hassle of applying for all that stuff (Residence application + Citizenship application). My wife and I are lucky to be fairly Brexit-proof, we can leave the UK reasonably quickly and smoothly (although family issues are never easy to solve but what would these people care) but imagine the trauma for people who can’t, for families etc. If that’s not right-wing populism then tell me what is. AFAIK, the other EU countries you mention don't do that, certainly not France anyhow. Like many Western countries France is tough on immigration (but not on Freedom of Movement, unlike Denmark, Belgium, Germany etc. The French FoM interpretation within the EU is total, you don’t need to register etc. just like it was in the UK), but France is more tolerant and humane now than the UK on immigration matters, you don’t even have to have Residency before being allowed to apply for citizenship, and being married to a French national automatically gives you more rights than in the UK in matters such as Residency and Citizenship.

Look at the 15,000 children who grow up separated and the families who are torn apart because of Home Office hostile environment policies (the so-called “Skype families”): Theresa May's brutal family separations would make Trump blush Ripping children and parents apart has long been a specialty of Britain’s cruel immigration system – as I know too well

The Children’s Commissioner has found that at least 15,000 children growing up in the UK live without a parent because the right of British citizens to reunite with a foreign spouse is limited by an unreasonable income threshold, an impossibly complicated application system fraught with Home Office errors, and no legal aid for families to challenge incorrect decisions. Parents and children alike suffer mental trauma, with symptoms including nightmares, eating disorders and aggression, while relationships are severely strained, often to the point at which children no longer recognise their parents. Children like Elijah, whose father was unable even to be present for Elijah’s birth. Families just like yours and mine. May’s government has repeatedly advised families that they are free to use Skype, and therefore this enforced separation does not constitute a violation of their right to a family life, while pledging to tighten these restrictions in its manifesto last year.

That’s far right populism all right. I don’t know about Germany, the Netherlands etc. but I know for a fact that this doesn’t happen in France, certainly not on that scale as family reunion and marriage to a French national counts far more than in the UK where May has made sure it now counts for fuck all.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

[2/2]

May’s policy when she was Home Sec has been devastating for foreigners, including EU nationals. The Guardian or s.o else had detailed the mind-boggling number of rules she created and extra barriers she put up, again even towards EU nationals, it was in the hundreds. All the regulations were tightened to ridiculous levels and the fees trebled on average during under the Tories, making it difficult for many to access those fundamental rights (fees on Tiered visas, Residence permits, Indefinite Leave to Remain, ILR – permanent residency for third-country nationals, etc. UK Citizenships etc. – what the Economist calls “Pay-triotism”.

That creates extra barriers for foreigners in the UK, especially families. Those fees are minimal in Germany and almost non existent in France (it’s just admin fees of €0-€55 in France, the €55 is for the citizenship: it’s close to £2,000 in the UK for citizenship; ILR costs £2,400; a dependent relative application is a staggering £3,250. Yet, the real cost is only a fraction: The actual cost of processing an ILR application is £243 and a naturalisation application costs the Home Office £372.

Many of those rules impacted people legally here. May’s deliberately vile interpretation of the 2004/38 directive on Freedom of Movement (although that was done under Labour but she could have changed it - of course under Labour and until Brexit NO EU nationals asked for a Residence permit as you didn't have to; if you wanted UK citizenship, you applied directly for it, no need to have a Residency permit, May changed that in 2015) and the fucking cynical introduction of the CSI rule that I referred to in part 1 (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance, something so obscure no-one knew of its existence until Brexit) has barred hundreds of 1000s of EU nationals from applying for a Residence permit and therefore UK citizenship as the first has been a prerequisite to the second since 2015 (May introduced that significant extra barrier, for no other reason than to make money and screw people up, there is no reason for it).

That CSI rule was deemed illegal by Brussels in 2012, they put pressure on the UK to remove it (it bars access to residence and therefore to applying for UK citizenship) but to no avail, May’s been saying for 2 yrs that she would remove it in the Residency application form but hasn’t of course, bargaining chips and all that. And the fact she is a true racist, I have no doubt about it. Otherwise, why put up all these extra obstacles on top of a system that was already tough when she arrived, why for instance block the route to Residency & Citizenship to EU nationals who have integrated, worked here all their adult life etc.?

That’s far right populist in anyone’s books. Look at the 100+ letters of deportation illegally sent to EU nationals etc.

Look also at how the much-trumpeted vote-winning plans to “reduce net migration to the tens of thousands” is being quietly shelved (Radio 4 news 2 days ago, at 1h00’14
here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001md1: “Ministers target of reducing annual net migration below 100,000 has been left out of draft proposals for a new immigration system”. Rightwing populism again...


#2. Much has been made about the far right in France since its emergence in the mid-1980s, and rightly so, but their actual impact has been minimal, mainly thanks to the French electoral and constitutional system (and the absence of tabloids too) which act as a sort of buffer against political catastrophes, it has stopped disasters such as Brexit, Trump, Salvini or Kurz. Apart from when Mitterrand in 1986 (General Elections) bigged up the Front National so that the cunts would eat into Chirac's electorate, this then big rival (Mitterrand introduced Proportional Representation and pressurised TV executives of France Télévisions – the French BBC – to give Jean-Marie Le Pen + other Frontistes as much airtime and possible, some TV executives caved in, others didn’t. Mitterrand made sure that J-M Le Pen enjoyed a disproportionate amount of airtime in the mid-1980s; There was a popular French political programme called “L’heure de Vérité” at the time for instance Le Pen was invited 9 times in a few years – the most invited guest with Chirac, also 9 times – it was dubbed as “Leurre de Vérité”...).

Apart from the mid-1980s when the National Front had 35 MPs with 9.6% of the vote (1986 general elections - only lasted 2 yrs, as another GE in 1988), the Front National never had more than 1 or 2 MPs after that (usually Jeam-Marie Le Pen, they slumped to fuck all in the 2000s in the General Elections, 4% in the 2007 GE), and they only have 7 MPs now since 2017, out of 935 seats (National Assembly + Senate), they got 13% in the 2017 GE in the 1st round, 9% in the second.

They don’t control anything: zero region, zero city, zero department. They just run a dozen small/mid-sized towns, mainly located in the south/south-east, Béziers and Fréjus being the biggest ones (pop: 75,000 and 52,000 respectively; the Béziers mayor, that cunt Robert Ménard, ex left-wing journalist turned nutjob, isn’t officially Front National but very close). They have 1,300 elected officials (municipal councillors in the main) but that’s out of 618,000 for the whole country, so only 0.2%. It doesn’t mean that we have to be complacent and dismiss their crankiness but we need to put things in perspective.

[Lang Spoon]

I really fucking despise British politics right now. The rot started before Blair, but the Sensibles ramped it up to keep the Sun and the Plain People of England onside or from their own bigotry. Jack Straw, Blunkett, “Dr” John Reid, May is more extreme, but in the same lineage. I don’t know how senior officials in the Home Office can live with themselves implementing pure evil decade on decade. I’m guessing a lot of low level Processing grunts just keep their heads down and follow orders but I wouldn’t be surprised if their hiring policy leans toward sadists. And of course the outsourced evil doers like Serco and Capital. Fuck them all. At this point fuck the entire British State can just burn. Disgusting country.

[Lang Spoon]

I shouldn’t post after drinking port.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Drinking port is not advisable at the best of times. Which, needless to say, these aren't. However I totally agree with your last sentence.

[ursus arctos]

Spoony, those senior officials are the sons and daughters of homocidal imperialists. One can argue that the trend is actually positive.

As much as it pains me to disagree with Amor, I believe that there is a time and place for port.

[Flynnie]

May’s rip-off immigration fees have done a lot to turn American migrants (I loathe the term expat) into Labour voters. Probably not enough of us to make a difference and we’re disproportionately in London, but whenever it’s brought up there’s a unanimous sense of resentment at being charged several times the going rate for equivalent visas from INS.