The Brexit Thread

[Tubby Isaacs]

That was a Clegg soundbite wasn't it? The Tory soundbite was "get rid of the green crap".

[Eggchaser]

It was Cameron in 2010. Lightweight, lying git.

I see no one's buying Christmas presents now, not even online. Probably the fault of Project Fear.

[Duncan Gardner]

No. I voted Remain. I still want to Remain. I don't care if that is undemocratically undermining the will of the people

Your POV is neither undemocratic nor undermining anyone else's. We lost in the Referendum; we've given the Government 2.5 years to act on it; they have clearly failed to do that. Everyone gets another chance to vote, if the result is the same we'll still Leave.

And people saying 'we have to respect the will of the people' are ignoring the 48% of people who wanted to stay in the EU

See immediately above. We did respect it. Obviously some of the people who say this are Leaver fanatics and trolls, but others just can't think in terms of any system beyond FPTP and its effects.

[Tubby Isaacs]

And when I say idiots I mean I work in a hospital and every day I have to elbow my way in through the main doors past the crowd of smokers clustered outside the doors sucking on their death sticks who can't see a cause and effect chain between their actions and where they are standing. Why would you let people with such poor decision making faculties make a decision on anything?

And going on demographics of who smokes and where voted Brexit, you know that if they bothered to vote they most likely voted Leave.

We all do stuff that's bad for us. I'm currently risking non-alcoholic fatty liver disease because I won't lose a stone- tests show everything fine, but not thanks to me, it isn't.

But I can see how frustrating it must be for someone who works in a hospital. I understand it's particularly annoying when somebody who is killing themselves purports to have discovered a wonder cure on the internet?

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

No. I voted Remain. I still want to Remain. I don't care if that is undemocratically undermining the will of the people because I meet absolute idiots every day and I wouldn't trust them with cutlery let alone a vote on anything of consequence. Which proves I'm smarter than David Cameron.

And people saying 'we have to respect the will of the people' are ignoring the 48% of people who wanted to stay in the EU and are very angry at having to bear the cost of Brexit along with everyone else. That's why Corbyn lost me all over again.

This.

[Nefertiti2]

I leafleted for remain, marched for a people's vote. But I have nothing but contempt for the "people's vote campaign" who turn all their ire on Corbyn and aren't prepared to put the same amount of pressure on the Conservatives. They've turned into Theresa May and Liam Fox' useful idiots, protecting her and her rotten government as they make off the last of the common weal and get away with their Brexit deal.

And as for the fucking incompetents who led the Referendum campaign...

[Snake Plissken]

Exactly.

And where would we be if Corbyn hadn’t pulled off that GE result? Or Burnham, Kendall et al had managed to seize back control of Labour?

May’s Brexit deal backed by “legitimate concerns”.

[beak]

And when I say idiots I mean I work in a hospital and every day I have to elbow my way in through the main doors past the crowd of smokers clustered outside the doors sucking on their death sticks who can't see a cause and effect chain between their actions and where they are standing. Why would you let people with such poor decision making faculties make a decision on anything?

Yeah, what kind of dickhead is addicted to things?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Exactly.

And where would we be if Corbyn hadn’t pulled off that GE result? Or Burnham, Kendall et al had managed to seize back control of Labour?

May’s Brexit deal backed by “legitimate concerns”.

May collapsed personally in the campaign, told her base they should expect to sell their houses for care, failed to put any costings in the manifesto and made an unpopular currency shredding Hard Brexit her signature issue. The Lib Dems got stuck talking about gay sex and Sturgeon got stuck talking about a premature indyref.

Performance since the election hasnt exactly dispelled the impression the performance wasnt all about Corbyn genius.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour are running now on "legitimate concerns" of ending freedom of movement.

[Nefertiti2]

May collapsed personally in the campaign, told her base they should expect to sell their houses for care, failed to put any costings in the manifesto and made an unpopular currency shredding Hard Brexit her signature issue. The Lib Dems got stuck talking about gay sex and Sturgeon got stuck talking about a premature indyref.

Performance since the election hasnt exactly dispelled the impression the performance wasnt all about Corbyn genius.

You're incorrigible aren't you? Labour had a popular manifesto with policies like renationalistion of rail and water industries a firm commitment ro tackling the crisis in Housing and education and cutting student fees- now 9000 pounds. Corbyn campaigned all overthe conutry and showed an ability to communicate well with ordinary people.



At least you've stopped calling him Jezza I suppose.

[Nefertiti2]

Labour are running now on "legitimate concerns" of ending freedom of movement.

I think you're confusing the Labour Party with Caroline Flint. Rachel Reeves and Tony Blair.

[Nefertiti2]

HEY TUBBY LOOK WHAT JErEMY CORBYN'S DOING NOW !!!

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1075026736113508352

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/themingford/status/1074980392984297472?s=21

[Tubby Isaacs]

Capital letters. Always a good sign.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Let's leave it, Nef.

[Nefertiti2]

Here’s some more of Labour’s anti migrant policies.

The Shadow Home Secretary (daughter of two immigrants)

https://twitter.com/hackneyabbott/status/1075043274929385473?s=21

If you maKe provocative assertions Tubs don’t be surprised if someone tries to refute them.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

What an idiotic tweet {edit: the Thomas H one obv.] Nobody is blaming Labour for what the Government are doing. they're blaming Labour for failure to be an effective opposition.

Obviously the government are the main villians here, especially the intransigent and damaging tactics pursued by May. But, especially on a left wing forum like this one, that kind of goes without saying. Why should we all waste time agreeing with each other about how awful the Tories are, especially the likes of Fox, Johnson and other hard leavers. It'd be pointless.

Also, the ire specifically against Corbyn from many supporters of a new referendum, myself included, is because he is acting in spite of his party membership. It is absolutely clear that a large majority of Labour Party members oppose Brexit in any form, yet he persists with the deluded and damaging myth of a "jobs first Brexit". At least the Tory top brass have the excuse that their party membership is majority Leave, which limits their freedom to support Remain moves. Corbyn has no such excuse.

[Nefertiti2]

Are you a member of the Labour Party, EEG?

[Tubby Isaacs]

But if someone can confirm to me, am I right Labour is for leaving the Single Market? If so, that's because of freedom of movement, yeah? It can't be state aid or the European Court of Justice, surely?

[Nefertiti2]

It’s not just what’s said in this forum, EEG. It’s how things are framed in in the media. It’s what the supporters of the People’s Vote say when they’re interviewed. Any democracy in this process- up to
And including the meaningful vote which she has postponed has only occurred because of Labour pressure. And yet the rage is all directed at the Labour Party...,

[Tubby Isaacs]

EEG, it's also that as things stand a general election would bring in a Labour Government running on a policy the EU say they won't allow.

[San Bernardhinault]

On the question of "Has anyone changed their mind", I keep shifting my opinion on whether we should have a second referendum.

Like Patrick, I feel that nobody is representing the 48%. Almost nobody in UK politics is actually saying that staying in the EU is clearly a massively better option than adhering to the referendum result.

Part of me thinks that literally anything should be done to overturn that result - and if a second referendum achieves that, then great.

But that means (a) we have to win the second referendum and (b) the second referendum has to ask the right question. I don't want to go down the "We'll have a referendum on electoral reform" and then give people the choice between FPTP and AV route. Letting people choose between May's deal and Hard Brexit would legitimise a terrible decision.

Also, I struggle to see a solid democratic case for a second referendum. It's purely a question of expediency to get the result I want.

So, the other part of me thinks we have to make the best of the Brexit outcome. Which means adhering to the letter of the referendum only - it may be more achievable to push for the least Brexity Brexit possible (which is, of course, the best Brexit possible): one which retains FoM and keeps us in the single market and the EEA and in all of the pan-European organisations like Euratom and so on. This might be more sustainable and less likely to provoke riots than just stopping Brexit entirely.

Of course, literally nobody is pushing for the Least Brexity Brexit.

[Nefertiti2]

I think, more or less, I agree with San Bernardinhault. I don't see a clear path to a second referendum, and even less a guarantee that REMAIN would win. I alos think that the past events have shown up the utter shambles that is the British (lack of) Constitution and the nonstop procedural shenanigans of the last 7 years . We need a Written Constitution reform of the second chamber abolition of First Past the Post as a matter of urgency.

[Lang Spoon]

There has been some pushing for a proper soft Brexit as SB describes, but this has come from the Nats and Greens so can safely be ignored while the big beasts posture over cake.