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    We have 14 months left. Nothing to worry about.

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      Britons living in EU - don't plan any sudden moves:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics...her-eu-country

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        Au contraire. Seems to me we need to get our moving in now. Or suddenly if you like

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          A UK source close to the negotiations said there was agreement on 50% of the issues on citizens’ rights.

          “But we still have doubts about the EU’s plans and their commitment to upholding citizens’ rights,” the source added. “The UK has put a serious offer on the table, but there are significant gaps in the EU’s offer.”
          Eh? The EU's offer is to keep existing rights in toto, for both sides, overseen by the ECJ so they can't be taken away by national governments. You can have objections to that, but doubting their commitment?

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            It makes perfect sense when you understand that this Government considers EU citizens to be bargaining chips. They don't want them to stay.

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              Well, sure. But it's very strange language to use in that context. Say the EU is overreaching, or seeking rights that British citizens wouldn't have. But gaps? Insufficient commitment?

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                Labour Kipper Caroline Flint not happy with the talk from the Single Market supporters. None of that wanted in Don Valley, which will doubtless blossom like never before with the Poles kept out.

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                  I'm sure that there could be some arguments made about this.

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                    I still disagree with Elliott really, in that whatever the chaos in the Tory party, the terms of Brexit are going to be closer to the hard-right's than the radical left's, and because the racist backwash of the referendum is going to be with us regardless (that's the main reason I voted Remain), but a lot of hardcore Remainers are still making the same mistakes they made in the referendum campaign itself: in implicitly (and sometimes) explicitly giving the impression that single-market and EU membership is the root of much of our happiness, they merely paint themselves as defenders of a status quo that isn't working for a huge number of people. "Everything's going to be shit in the future" may be a reasonable analysis, but it's not necessarily going to play well to people for whom "Everything's shit now, and has been for ages" is the reality of their lives, inside the EU and single market.

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                      I think the sub heading of that piece says everything you need to know really. "By leaving we can have the sort of radical socialist programme that would be illegal under EU law". Can, but won't. Even under Corbyn. Plus he falls into that classic economists trap of seeing everything as big picture forces and movements, rather than real things on the ground affecting real people, like the racism he is totally brushing under the carpet here. Is he trying to now say his constant brexit cheerleading over the last year was motivated by progressive intent? It never seemed that way to me. He came across as by far the most free market libertarian rightwinger that the Guardian employs.

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                        Elliott? Really? He certainly isn't a libertarian right-winger.

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                          His constant pro-brexit line both pre and post June 23rd 2016 certainly never seemed to be a Lexit one (this article being the first time he ever seems to have posited that line). (Not obviously that i buy the lexit line either, however much more appealing it is on paper to the racehatebrexit line.)

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                            His book, Fantasy Island, written in 2007, was an astonishingly prescient warning of the dangers of unregulated 'boom' capitalism, and stuff like this, during the election, is hardly free-market libertarian

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                              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                              His book, Fantasy Island, written in 2007, was an astonishingly prescient warning of the dangers of unregulated 'boom' capitalism, and stuff like this, during the election, is hardly free-market libertarian
                              No fair enough, I hadn't seen that article at the time, I'd just become somewhat exhausted by his constant brexiteering (none of which, as I say, seemed to be coming from a left wing perspective, nor a right wing one to be fair, just from a "The EU is shit" one)

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                                "The EU is a bit shit but the UK is much worse" was kind of my pitch during the referendum, accentuating the negative as I like to do.

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                                  Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                  "The EU is a bit shit but the UK is much worse" was kind of my pitch during the referendum, accentuating the negative as I like to do.
                                  This.

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                                    Len McCluskey is a bit quiet about the Single Market, having committed to it (quite rightly) months and months ago.

                                    I wonder if he's had a wink from Corbyn that a switch is coming, in good time.

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                                      I always have a big problem with Larry Elliot's articles, and that is that he is a lexiteer, so I start reading his articles with the certain knowledge that he's a dangerous moron who doesn't really understand what he is talking about. He doesn't have a fucking clue what the EU actually does, and he can't differentiate between 40 years of thatcherism, and the EU. The important thing to remember when writing about the EU every country in the EU is different, and has responded differently to being the EU. Some have made a fucking raging success of it. Others have made a fucking hames of it. We've managed to do both, and often simultaneously.

                                      But if you separate out all the issues in his article, that can be ascribed to the rich in the south east, waging an unrelenting class and economic war on everyone else, deliberately destroying industry to destroy the unions, and building their economy around being the global centre for Tax evasion, and call centres. The problem for the politicians representing remain, is that in order to make the proper case for the European Union, they had to fess up to literally everything that is wrong with modern Britain is the fault of their adherence to the Legacy of thatcher, and that the Eu has been advising the UK to follow a different path at virtually every point.

                                      The thing is that the UK is a vastly more wealthy country than it was in 1973. The Cake is so much bigger than it was back then that it's difficult to believe. This is in large part down to membership of the single market. The Way that that cake has been divided over the 37 years, can only be described as evil. This can be measured in a variety of ways, be it the number of extra people in employment, or be it the economic status of women or minorities, who still lag behind, but have gained hugely, in large part due to pressure from the EU. And while it's possible to look back at the past and think that the NHS was better, or workers rights were better, if you slightly shift your perspective, the Pre-EU UK was a horrific shithole for most people, with a dying economy and society, that couldn't handle not having one quarter of the world as a captive market for literally any old shite they thought to produce.

                                      And while it is important to recognize that the current division of the UK economic cake is horrifically unfair, Leaving the EU isn't going to do anything remotely positive at all about that, and most importantly, it's not going to do anything other than make the cake much fucking smaller, and it's going to do it by blowing a fucking massive hole in the UK tax take, which is going to disproportionately affect the poor and vulnerable. so basically this analysis that e10 rifle refers to....

                                      in implicitly (and sometimes) explicitly giving the impression that single-market and EU membership is the root of much of our happiness, they merely paint themselves as defenders of a status quo that isn't working for a huge number of people. "Everything's going to be shit in the future" may be a reasonable analysis, but it's not necessarily going to play well to people for whom "Everything's shit now, and has been for ages" is the reality of their lives, inside the EU and single market.

                                      takes no account of the fact that the tiny piece of the cake that those people are receiving is in large part dependent on Single market membership, and could always get a lot smaller. Brexit is going to kill the NHS far faster than Jeremy Hunt could dream of.

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                                        This stuff the EU won't let us do, and which is going to transform the economy? I've still not much idea what it is. Nationalization- if that's at all the answer- isn't a problem in the Single Market. State aid? That can be done indirectly anyway. Protectionism? Ridiculous idea- just encourages retaliation.

                                        The problem has been poor investment. Nothing to do with the EU.

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                                          The problem is that in 1979, the UK was taken over by people who didn't try and make things better, but set about making things worse, but on terms that suited them. That's a weird thing to do. It didn't happen anywhere else other than the UK and the US, and has gradually affected everyone else at one remove.

                                          the problem facing the left in the 1970's in the UK was that the UK was doing literally everything wrong, but they had no coherent vision of how to change, so the conservatives wound up being able to enforce their version of Change, so instead of developing a version of social democracy comparable with Denmark, the left found themselves allied with Arthur fucking scargill, who was every bit as bad in his own way as fucking thatcher, and facing a world where their role was to try and protect the dying parts of the UK economy from avoidable annihilation.

                                          It's similar to the situation faced by the Democratic party in the US where because the republicans have been watching too much true blood and have decided to Marry Plantation society with drinking human blood, the Democratic party have found themselves defending the last remnants of the New Deal and the great society from the relentless assault from an army of psychopaths and morons.

                                          Of course these people could always come up with with an alternative vision which isn't fucking evil in a fucking bottle. but that seems to be beyond them.

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                                            And the moral of the story here is that using your ATM card is always preferable to bureaux de change:

                                            https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-to-the-pound

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                                              I'm genuinely amazed that that industry survives within the EU

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                                                You're surprised that an industry exists to rob unwary English travellers?

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                                                  Good point. Well made.

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                                                    Chaucer would be proud at the way that they've kept the old traditions alive.

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