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    Agree. But he leadership have to spend much of their time dealing with attacks from the right. Anything they do say about the problems of Brexit isn't reported anyway

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      One thing I am annoyed about with Labour is that they really need to be pinning Brexit on Davis, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Raab, Farage, Hannan and the rest of them.
      Yeah, I think a bit of "personality politics" is very much in order on this one. If not that, then the sort of thing Blair/Smith did with painting Major as being pushed around by his Bastards.

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        Originally posted by The Bretwalda View Post
        Apologies.



        Neither by Dominic Raab nor Steve Baker.

        Just Stewart Jackson.

        (whohe, btw?)
        Are you a constituent of Jackson's?

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          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
          Agree. But he leadership have to spend much of their time dealing with attacks from the right. Anything they do say about the problems of Brexit isn't reported anyway
          Try "Single Market" tmrw. That'll get reported.

          No elections coming before Brexit day, let the Tories have 8 months to explain why they're chucking people out of work to keep out Poles.

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            I get the paper Le Monde International if anyone wants my back issues once I'm done with them.

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                From a quick glance, Foges' Twitter account is full of that kind of garbage.

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                  As someone pointed out elsewhere, The Times just did a "at least Mussolini made the trains run on time" article.

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                    Quite.

                    What I thought was striking was that The Times decided to feature this kind of garbage.

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                      Well this is how it starts isn't it?

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                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                        Quite.

                        What I thought was striking was that The Times decided to feature this kind of garbage.
                        Ursus, this is what the UK has become in the last few years, it's not that surprising believe me. Also, look at what’s happening in some sections of the mainstream French media with Éric Zemmour for instance, on RTL (I wrote at length about it here and here and have mentioned it a few times elsewhere on OFT – I don’t know what Zemmour says exactly in his RTL programmes as I’ve never listened to them but knowing him it’s probably quite extreme. I’ve seen him many times on TV, where he struts his vile stuff – less so now, more like 5 yrs ago –, and it is scary).

                        Very hostile times in the UK atm ursus, you just have to look at the official Home Office "policy of hostility" (that's how May and her goons have termed it, the public likes to hear such rhetoric) and how it’s proudly sold to the electorate. I won't tell you what I, or my wife, have heard too in the last few years (not about me, but other people, of colour), it is utterly vile. Racism is sadly universal and not something that most people come across too often but Brexit has defo "décomplexé" (~disinhibited) people, and the media too, "la parole s'est libérée" as they say in France.

                        It’s not just the Windrush people and third country people that the Tories have shafted hard, EU nationals have also been treated appallingly, the Home Office are constantly threatening to expel them or put them in deportation centres, illegally of course, in contravention to the EU legislation, lots of deportation letters "wrongly" sent to EU nationals, and tens of thousands of EU nationals illegally barred from obtaining a residence permit (necessary to get UK citizenship since... 2015, May, then Home Sec introduced that along with other shity stuff), and therefore barred from obtaining the UK nationality, again, totally illegally, Brussels has complained but to no avail.

                        I should know, I am one of those people who have been illegally barred from obtaining a residence permit. It pissed me off first as you can imagine – almost all my adult life in the UK, I work here, married to a UK national, have done plenty of community work as a volunteer, I've never fucking used the NHS, never claimed a penny in benefits etc. etc. and they deny me that right. But I don’t care anymore, I’ll happily leave England if I need to despite having always loved England and loving where I live, it’s saved me 2 grand too (rough cost of UK citizenship) so I'm quids in. I'll get this settled status thing and be able then to become British but my heart is not in it anymore, really not.

                        I often read, scan-read or flick through (online) the Times papers (incl. the ST) and that article from a Times columnist doesn’t surprise me. Rod Liddle (another vile anti-foreigner article yesterday from him, not on the French this time for a change – his favourite target, another violently francophobic article about 3 Sundays ago, pure bile – or the Romanians but on the Irish. The cult of the strongman is certainly gaining traction the world over, and Europe is certainly no exception, hate is fast being mainstreamed.

                        A few months ago I think it was Amor here (can’t remember which thread) who was wondering whether people in the West really deserved democracy. I replied that I was now asking myself the same question (an interrogation that would never have entered my mind only 2 years ago) even if years of unionism and AI activism stopped me short of agreeing with what he was saying.

                        I still fundamentally think that everyone deserves democracy of course but maybe it’s more out of principle and conviction than anything else, because, fuck, it’s getting harder not to fully agree with Amor, this is a Times columnist saying that, not a committed Ukipper or Frontist (Front National). It’s something you hear or read regularly too ("Yeah OK, they’re a bit uncouth but they get things done unlike our dithering wet drips and the lazy lefties don’t dare take to the streets in their countries"), used to be common with the older generation but evidently there are plenty of young cunts to take up that particular mantle.
                        Last edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 23-07-2018, 15:21.

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                          Democracy is absolutely the answer, to act otherwise is to enable the fascists. They don't like democracy one bit. The anti-democratic solution of technocratic centrism isn't working either, that's what got us in the shit.

                          Brexit would never have happened if the voting population wasn't cleansed of young people thanks to Cameron, EU citizens who should have had a say on their own future, non-EU citizens like me who have lived here for years and should have had a say on their future, and UK citizens in the EU whose lives were thrown into jeopardy.

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                            As for why Ireland has thus far avoided any similar outbursts, it certainly wouldn't be due to any extra degree of liberalism or tolerance among voters compared to the European average, but perhaps down to the "big-tent" nature of both FF and FG, along with the continued mandatory status of history in schools until the Junior Cycle. Of course, one could also regard SF as our ethno-nationalist protest movement, putting a considerably less positive reflection on affairs.

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                              Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                              Democracy is absolutely the answer, to act otherwise is to enable the fascists. They don't like democracy one bit. The anti-democratic solution of technocratic centrism isn't working either, that's what got us in the shit.
                              Of course, you're right, I would never advocate any other system than democracy and I'm sure Amor wouldn't either but sometimes you do wonder whether it's not like giving strawberries to donkeys.

                              Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                              Brexit would never have happened if the voting population wasn't cleansed of young people thanks to Cameron, EU citizens who should have had a say on their own future, non-EU citizens like me who have lived here for years and should have had a say on their future, and UK citizens in the EU whose lives were thrown into jeopardy.
                              Yes, everyone should have had a say of course, especially the brits abroad first, then EU citizens here (for at least 5 yrs) and then third-party nationals, in that order simply because of the reciprocal arrangements between all EU countries, nothing against 3rd country citizens obviously (mind, weren't the Commonwealth citizens given the right to vote at the ref'? I think so).

                              Not sure about your young people cleansing theory, I know quite a few who just didn't bother voting, I think a good third of 18-30 y-olds didn't bother voting according to various studies IIRC.

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                                Cameron knocked 800,000 mostly young people off the referendum, at cost to Britain, his political career and eventually his party (since they all got back on the voter roll in 2017 and knocked out the Tories in a good number of university towns).

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                                  Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                  Cameron knocked 800,000 mostly young people off the referendum, at cost to Britain, his political career and eventually his party (since they all got back on the voter roll in 2017 and knocked out the Tories in a good number of university towns).
                                  OK thanks, interesting, I didn't know the cunt had done that (I read a bit about Brexit in the first few months and then gave up, it's been interesting reading about the trade intricacies, the customs union etc. it's been a learning curve for many, at least people are much more informed now, a bit late I know), not that I'm terribly surprised, people abroad really underestimate how vile these Tories are. I tell my relatives and friends in continental Europe how toxic they are and even the left-wing ones think I exaggerate. I was myself a little taken aback, for want of a better word I suppose, at their level of vileness when they came to power in 2010 (I'd only spent a few yrs in the UK when it was John Major, and it was a much milder strain of Tory vileness then).

                                  I've just googled it and found this: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/luk...him-referendum

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                                    Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                    Cameron knocked 800,000 mostly young people off the referendum, at cost to Britain, his political career and eventually his party (since they all got back on the voter roll in 2017 and knocked out the Tories in a good number of university towns).
                                    Canterbury, Warwick/Leamington and Reading East were the only ones I can see.

                                    More generally, college towns have been trending away from the Tories for a while. For example, Exeter, as a well off town in the south was won by the Tories in 1992 by nearly 5 points. They lost it by 13 points in 2015 and nearly 30 points in 2017. Labour's piling up votes where it doesn't need them, per our crap electoral system.

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                                      Exeter is a city. Duh.

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                                        Originally posted by sw2borshch View Post
                                        I get the paper Le Monde International if anyone wants my back issues once I'm done with them.
                                        Very kind of you but I'm OK, I've got more than enough reading material scattered around my office, piles of magazines sent or given to me, a few books as well that I intend to read over the next weeks, as well as Spanish material that has been languishing under my desk for weeks nd that I need to sort out and go through. And that's just for the reading, there's writing stuff too that I need to get on with.

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                                          UKIP's brains trust are on it. These two are MEPs.

                                          It's incredible a) that they've only just thought of this, b) they don't know/care that it's complete shit.

                                          https://twitter.com/DavidCoburnUKip/status/1021392846581006337

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                                            These are the people Cameron was scared of. That's why we are now where we are.

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                                              https://twitter.com/colmocinneide/status/1021358588529430528

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                                                =Jeremy Hunt: "I am convinced that the British public are as thick as pigshit"

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                                                  He's got a point. They already believe utterly insane bullshit about the EU, and generally speaking have no real idea how it works. Also when the shit hits the fan, leavers aren't going to blame themselves for the consequences of their stupidity and ignorance. it's becoming abundantly clear that the world is full of angry morons, who would sooner destroy society and democracy than admit that they might be wrong about something.

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                                                    As a diligent student of the Church, this shouldn’t come as a surprise to you

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