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    The row over the border only appears "baffling" if you have absolutely zero knowledge of, interest in, and give not the remotest toss about, the people and history of Ireland, north and south.

    Which, admittedly, is a large chunk of the UK political and commentariat class.

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      You don't even have to care about Ireland to understand it. Just realise that going through customs involves goes through a building with customs officers and cops in it.

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        I expect when the EU put Ireland in the first phase (where it didn't really belong) they thought "they'll get the problem quickly and have time to prepare the public for what needs to be done to solve it".

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          I expect when the EU put Ireland in the first phase (where it didn't really belong) they thought "they'll get the problem quickly and have time to prepare the public for what needs to be done to solve it".
          I think it was more that if they didn't get it in the first phase, the UK government would still be pretending it could be handwaved away with non-existent tech. Which, as it happens, they're doing anyway.

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            If the EU really were naive enough to think that, then they, too, know bollocks all. It was an obvious intractable issue from the moment the vote came in

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              I've been shocked by our antics, so not sure I can say anyone else was naive.

              I'm not sure it's even "tech" that we're hiding behind now. It's a general "come on, there's got to be a way". The dreadful Isabel Oakeshott was doing this on the papers review last night, in the three seconds I caught by accident before switching over to the live hopscotch or whatever was on the sports channels.

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                There's a certain strand of Telegraph-Brexitry which is historically and deeply bigoted towards the Irish, and it's been scratched effortlessly to the surface now.

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                  It's a general "come on, there's got to be a way".
                  I mean, there may be, but the UK has yet to say what it might be. The EU has. It's why all this nonsense about the EU trying to divide the UK or whatever is so ridiculous. All the UK has to do to avoid it is to put something, anything, on the table that will live up to its own red lines.

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                    The Brexiteers are trying to convince everyone there's no need for a border as technology can solve the problem. I call bullshit on this.

                    I'm getting more and more fucked off with the selfish baby boomers who got everything, a job for life, a great pension etc and then selfishly voted for Brexit to spite everyone else. I hope their East European carers spit in their food and let them stay in their own shite.

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                      If we do get a soft border between Ultonia and the EU, and a de facto frontier in the Irish Sea, does that mean we can deport that piece of shit living in Brixton who "rides to hounds"?

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                        My wife, who despite having Irish grandparents has virtually no identification with Ireland at all, and myself, who is the archetype (along with John Dolan) of the overeducated "good" plastic paddy with distant Irish roots at best, are pretty much ready to start Friends of Sinn Fein, Lewisham Chapter, at the ignorance and imperialist agenda towards Ireland in Brexit. I have no idea how people aren't losing their fucking minds with rage at how this is going.

                        It's mostly Leavers, but not entirely so. Polly Toynbee had an insane article today asking Sinn Fein to join Westminster to save Britain from itself.

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                          The Queen has given away more British territory than anyone ever, hasn't she? Come on, the Daily Telegraph, buck up.

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                            If anyone wondered (and I don't mean here) what it looked like when the fantasists of Brexit smashed up against the hard reality, this is it. It's the EUs fault there is a hard border, because they just don't instinctively understand. It isn't up to Davies, IDS et al to come up with solutions, they are ideas people. It's ideas. I'm an ideas man, I have beliefs. I truly, utterly believe that human beings can fly. And all that has to happen is for you to throw yourself off the cliff. What? You won't do it? Then it is your fault my idea hasn't come to fruition.

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                              The EU's new West Bank Border?

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                                Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post
                                The Brexiteers are trying to convince everyone there's no need for a border as technology can solve the problem. I call bullshit on this.

                                I'm getting more and more fucked off with the selfish baby boomers who got everything, a job for life, a great pension etc and then selfishly voted for Brexit to spite everyone else. I hope their East European carers spit in their food and let them stay in their own shite.
                                I think we can overdo that trope really. Very many of them left school at 15, with little more than "Can your Dad get you in where he works?"

                                Doesn't excuse racist ignorance though, of course it doesn't.

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                                  Is there data on that?

                                  I ask because the entitled fuckers tend to get a pass on voting for 45 over here.

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                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                    I think we can overdo that trope really. Very many of them left school at 15, with little more than "Can your Dad get you in where he works?"

                                    Doesn't excuse racist ignorance though, of course it doesn't.
                                    Yes, but they belong to a generation where such a background didn't preclude building a comfortable life, and buying a house. . Something they seem very intent of denying to everyone who comes after them.

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                                      I think we should be wary of seeing the current faultlines in British politics as too generational. Especially as a lot of these analyses tend to downplay class. Plenty of 'boomers' are having a shit time of it, and not every 30-something is in the gutter.

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                                        I think we should be wary of seeing the current faultlines in British politics as too generational.
                                        The Brexit faultlines are pretty clearly generational. It's the strongest correlation other than education (which to a certain extent is going to be a proxy for class). It's also notable that the most ardent Brexiteers in parliament are the ones who wish they were living in the 1800s.

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                                          The vote was on my 59th birthday. Guess how I voted.

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                                            The Brexit faultlines are pretty clearly generational.
                                            But they also rub up against class, race and - very obviously - a provincial/city split. Seeing things as too broad-brush makes it harder to win people round with actual arguments. Which, less we forget (and some Remainers, alas, do), is kind of a key task.

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                                                Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                                I think we can overdo that trope really. Very many of them left school at 15, with little more than "Can your Dad get you in where he works?"

                                                Doesn't excuse racist ignorance though, of course it doesn't.
                                                That's pretty much how I remember it. I, and all but five or six of my classmates, left school at around that age (I was just 16.) Most got apprenticeships, one or two joined the cops or armed forces, a handful went to college to pick up GCEs, a couple of us went to art school.

                                                I'm disappointed in my generation for a number of reasons but blatant selfishiness isn't one of them. People my age volunteer in droves, support their kids through university (and often well beyond), provide child-care for grand-kids, and financing when our children need a home. Yes, our youth was one of full employment and easy affluence, and yes many of us took that for granted, as — I submit — almost anyone would.

                                                Now we look around, notice how much harder it is, and (some, not everyone) look for somebody to blame. This is the problem, blaming not solving. Past sixty or so, you feel impotent and vulnerable. Pointing a finger (and voting) seems like all you can do, and sadly there plenty of people around to tell who who to point the finger at.

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                                                  I don't think there's anything particularly unique about your generation though A de C, other than the Circumstances they faced. I'd come to the conclusion that any group of people in that situation would largely have behaved the same. It's just that the baby boomers actually got the chance, and have cut it off for everyone else. One of the great unintended weaknesses of the Post war settlement was that it raised enough people from working class to lower middle class, that it turned britain into a truly politically toxic environment. The concerns of these two groups are diametrically opposed.

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                                                    That's right, Amor.

                                                    I think too there's a bit of haziness about buying a house, and what it meant 40-50 years ago. Sure, it was easier, but lots of people lived with parents till getting married, and often afterwards as well. That's very different from my idea of "buying a place", formed in the mid 90s, where lots of single people bought flats with not too much difficulty.

                                                    Britpop, it was the best time ever! (etc)

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