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    Edit- we've done this before.

    The Customs Union thing sounds good.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
      Don't think Labour Brexit voters were against the customs union, were they?.
      I doubt that Labour Brexit Voters were a coherent bloc with coherent uniform opinions and reasons, any more than Tory Brexit voters were. Trying to treat them all as a single homogeneous entity is probably unhelpful. Some are going to be "the EU is too much of a free market organisation" lexiters; some are going to be racist shits; some will have just wanted to give David Cameron a good kicking; and maybe some were even idiots who thought that they were getting 300 million quid a week for the NHS.

      Comment


        I think that's a good summary, SB. I suppose the racists might really resent Ireland, but there won't be as many of those as the Tories have. And they probably have very few of the "EU is a protectionist racket, we need to be totally free to do huge trade deals" Liam Fox types.

        Comment


          Comment


            Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
            I doubt that Labour Brexit Voters were a coherent bloc with coherent uniform opinions and reasons, any more than Tory Brexit voters were. Trying to treat them all as a single homogeneous entity is probably unhelpful. Some are going to be "the EU is too much of a free market organisation" lexiters; some are going to be racist shits; some will have just wanted to give David Cameron a good kicking; and maybe some were even idiots who thought that they were getting 300 million quid a week for the NHS.
            agreed- and nobody voted to be poorer. If Corbyn and Labour can show that they are committed to making ordinary people richer then they have a chance to convince people who can be convinced.

            Comment


              The idea that Labour can do what it wants by only taxing people not like us though, that's a nonsense. I wish they'd drop it. I mean, Gordo stuck up National Insurance for more health spending, and it was very popular.

              Comment


                David Davis

                thick as mince, lazy as a toad, and vain as Narcissus”

                Comment


                  I'm not sure that nobody voted to be poorer. Or, more accurately, I think a good number of people voted for Brexit despite the fact that they were aware that it was likely to be economically damaging. As far as I was aware, it was always pretty clear that being outside the EU carried lots of economic downsides and people voted for it anyway, regardless. They weren't making economic choices, they were making choices that I consider daft, about sovereignty and foreigners and nationhood and history and all that bollocks. I feel that it's patronising to think that they were unaware that they were making a trade-off. Lower economic growth in exchange for 50s Empire Nostalgia Make England Great Again (MEGA!!!) cockrot.

                  In fact, I generally think that the focus on economics is from the Remain camp is misplaced. Because although the EU does bring obvious economic benefits, the economy is merely one of the upsides to membership and possibly not the main one. I'd argue that free movement of individuals is far more important than free movement of cash. I'd argue that engagement in continent wide environmental policies, which mean that they can make a difference on a meaningful scale, might be more important. And there are myriad other benefits that might not on their own be bigger than a few percent of economic growth, but which combined probably are. Remainers should be arguing all the good stuff that the EU does, rather than retreating to the tiny little last resort hill of appealing to peoples bank balances.

                  Comment


                    And the letter the "European Research Group" sent to Theresa May

                    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/966030983857344513

                    Comment


                      Well this makes no sense. If the FT's interpretation is correct, the UK government, having banged on for ages about how the transition period must have a firm end point, is now insisting it be open ended. WTF are they doing? Is this a show of strength against the ERG demands?

                      On the other hand, based solely on the excerpt they've presented, I'm not sure it does say that. Maybe it's clearer in context.

                      Comment


                        One might think that they have no idea what they are doing

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                          I'm not sure that nobody voted to be poorer. Or, more accurately, I think a good number of people voted for Brexit despite the fact that they were aware that it was likely to be economically damaging. As far as I was aware, it was always pretty clear that being outside the EU carried lots of economic downsides and people voted for it anyway, regardless. They weren't making economic choices, they were making choices that I consider daft, about sovereignty and foreigners and nationhood and history and all that bollocks. I feel that it's patronising to think that they were unaware that they were making a trade-off. Lower economic growth in exchange for 50s Empire Nostalgia Make England Great Again (MEGA!!!) cockrot.
                          I may well have said this dozens of pages back but my abiding memory of the referendum aftermath was getting my hair cut on the Saturday morning. Brexit wasn't featuring in the general conversation around the place til the news came on the radio and mentioned it, which led to the following exchange:

                          Hairdresser - Did you vote?
                          Me - Yeah.
                          Hairdresser - F***ing brilliant wasn't it?
                          Me, aware that I was talking to someone wielding scissors and temporarily in charge of my entire appearance - .......
                          Hairdresser - They are going to screw us now aren't they, y'know, the French and the Germans? Worth it though eh. Doing much this afternoon?

                          Comment


                            Full text here. As I read, it's not talking about an open-ended mechanism at all. Just that they would prefer at least two years instead of a bit less.

                            Comment


                              Quite

                              Was the FT transcribing a briefing instead of actually analysing the text?

                              Comment


                                Doesn't seem like it, but sounds like the reporter was rushing to get it out (all the other usual suspects got the leak too it seems) and got the wrong end of the stick. It was part of their "FastFT" thing, and I don't know what their editorial process is for that.

                                Comment


                                  They've restated it in the full article on the document, walking back from the "open-ended" language, but still clinging on to ambiguity I don't think is there.

                                  A UK position paper, shared with Brussels this week, contains no end date for the transition although British officials maintain it is their intention to set one.
                                  I mean, it does contain one. It's just provisional.

                                  Comment


                                    McDonnell seems to be hesitating of supporting the cross-party (well 3 Tories) amendment on the Customs Union.

                                    This makes no sense to me really. You play up government divisions. You don't have to say "Ken Clarke is brilliant" or anything. And even if you did, Ken Clarke (or Soubry or anyone else sane on Europe) isn't going to be the next Tory leader.

                                    I don't see any great problem among Labour Brexiters in backing this strongly now.
                                    Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 22-02-2018, 16:40.

                                    Comment


                                      Where's the surprise? He's voted against every procedural attempt to preserve the customs union so far.

                                      Comment


                                        I thought they'd shifted the other day.

                                        Comment


                                          Like I said, I don't think so. They've always talked about wanting "the benefits of a customs union". They've never said they wanted the customs union, and they still haven't.

                                          Comment


                                            Thornberry went a bit further.

                                            But it's poor.

                                            Comment


                                              McDonnell has always been the problem re SM and CU, at least according to Stephen Bush, the only Sensible I trust.We need Abbott and co to marginalize the fucker, and quick.

                                              Comment


                                                Corbyn is giving a Brexit speech on Monday

                                                https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/966663347008614402

                                                Comment


                                                  Here's hoping.

                                                  Corbyn could really make this work for him, in a "look, I've listened" sort of way. He's got that sort of air about him, I've always thought so, even when I was getting stuck in, and it's been key in the "commie traitor" stuff not working.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Brexit was the squeezed middle, says some LSE researchers

                                                    Also interesting- apparently people who belonged to the Church of England were far more pro Brexit than Catholics and Methodists.

                                                    Comment

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