The Brexit Thread

[anton pulisov]

He and McDonnell don't like the Single Market's state aid limitations

The French TGV system is run by the state owned SNCF and is not profitable. I was on the evening TGV to Paris last night and the train was packed with hungry people. The restaurant car was closed. SNCF totally not interested in making a profit.

Yet somehow it continues to exist. Realpolitik says the EU can't fuck with the French TGV.

See also Transport for London.

[ad hoc]

Exactly. And Norwegian governments actually wanted to join the EU along with the other Nordics, but the people rejected membership in a referendum, convinced that the Europeans were coming to steal all their oil money.

So instead they joined the EU in all but name.

In fact, what we can really learn from the Norway referendum is that if you have a halfway sensible political system, when a binary referendum results in a very narrow victory for one side, then the ideal response is to acknowledge that win, but try and come up with a solution that meets the arguments/fears/etc of both camps. Rather than what the UK is doing which is basically saying "OK these 52% won, the 48% get absolutely trampled on. Losers"

[johnr]

In fact, what we can really learn from the Norway referendum is that if you have a halfway sensible political system, when a binary referendum results in a very narrow victory for one side, then the ideal response is to acknowledge that win, but try and come up with a solution that meets the arguments/fears/etc of both camps. Rather than what the UK is doing which is basically saying "OK these 52% won, the 48% get absolutely trampled on. Losers"

'The UK' government is doing that. The Labour party is trying to carry out your first sentence. Lots of people don't get that.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The French TGV system is run by the state owned SNCF and is not profitable. I was on the evening TGV to Paris last night and the train was packed with hungry people. The restaurant car was closed. SNCF totally not interested in making a profit.

Yet somehow it continues to exist. Realpolitik says the EU can't fuck with the French TGV.

See also Transport for London.

It's impossible not to subsidize rail. That's not a problem.

As I understand the fourth rail package, the SNCF will be facing some competition on some lines. I don't think that's being suggested for London Underground.

[Tubby Isaacs]

TfL btw is the transport authority.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting rationalisation going around today that what they "really mean" is that one can't be "in the single market" without having a say in its rule-making (which Norway et al do not).

Slightly better than the GOP Senators who are telling everyone that 45 didn't describe the developing world as "shithole countries" because they think he said "shithouse countries".

It's a serious political problem the "control" issue. You can only win over people with the "economy stupid" if they think that's the main issue. For lots of people it wasn't, it was "control". These people may be no more anti-Pole than Remainers, it just feels to them that EU immigration should be nation state controlled.

I can't see Labour doing any serious preparation for the control problem in the Norway position.

[Ginger Yellow]

Unfortunate FT headline today:

BNP seizes Brexit opportunity to boost UK operation

[Erskine Bridges]

I'm not attacking you EB, but why didn't enough people like you get out before? Genuine question - did you think we - Remain - would win, and/or others would campaign on your behalf?

It sounds harsh when written rather than said, so as I say it's not an attack, I'm just interested.

Johnr

I've always been politically aware and always vote but have never been politically engaged in terms of joining a party or campaigning. The closest I ever got was taking my 3 yo to a march against the Iraq invasion.

I suppose like a lot of people I really couldn't see the vote being leave. I couldn't see much (any) upside but could see plenty potential downside. I had started a new business in March 2016 and was somewhat distracted but if I'm being honest, without that I probably wouldn't have got involved anyway. I knew very, very few people who were planning to vote leave. Less than 2-3% of people I knew so I suppose I was complacent. And yes, you're correct, I expected other people to campaign for what I wanted.

Scotland did vote quite strongly to remain so my instincts were correct but I clearly had no idea how large parts of England and Wales were thinking.

For what its worth, I can't think of any political result that has made me feel more down, more concerned about the future. Actually, more concerned about my children's future. I've now switched off to a large degree. Partly because so much of what was going on was just speculation and what wasn't seemed to be farce. However, things seem to be firming up a bit now. It would appear we will be getting what the EU think we should be getting at the price and on the terms they decide or we can fuck off. While I can see where they're coming from, this approach potentially plays into all the wrong hands and will quite likely end up with noses strewn a'where and virtually every face spited.

[johnr]

Thanks for your reply EB, much appreciated. I'm pretty down about it too.

You said that 'I would definitely get active if there was another (referendum) and while that in itself wouldn't make much difference, if enough people like me do the same then it may well do. Would have to be UK wide mind you.' I don't think there will be another - better to go via the parliamentary route I think - but, if there is, I hope that all on here who have been bemoaning where we're at will get out and do as you're planning to do.

[Fussbudget]

I don't think Erskine's case is all that rare, I know quite a few people (in their 20s mostly) who didn't bother to vote as they thought it was a foregone conclusion but are aghast at the result.

There are also tens of thousands of EU citizens in the UK like myself who were not eligible to vote the first time around but are now (or in the process of becoming) British citizens.

[Duncan Gardner]

Would you be interested in an exchange FB? I'm prepared to drink only Cotes du Rhone, learn to play my toy accordion and even smoke Gauloises if it helps

(inspired by Andrew Adonis this week in the New European- he offered his Peerage for NF's German passport)

[Fussbudget]

I'm not giving up my French passport, Dunc! I'd like to still be able to travel and all.

[Duncan Gardner]

Merci. Was talking the other day to a Belgian friend who like you is long-term resident here and has just received Brit Citz. Had she not done that and returned to Flanders, she wouldn't have had automatic right to return. This country pisses me right off

[anton pulisov]

Don't you have your purple Guinness booklet yet?

[Duncan Gardner]

I do have a video from Iveagh House explaining the process

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

This is quite good.

The problem that I have with Lexiters, is that they are so fucking insular and ignorant. Ignorant in the sense that they just don't know about stuff, and insular, in that they don't know about other countries. The EU contains France, where public spending accounts for nearly 56% of GDP. It contains Denmark where nearly 50% of the workforce work for the public sector. It contains countries where Trade Unions hold real sway. they don't really realise that the centreground in the UK is far to the right of the EU average. If the European Union has a political character, it is considerably to the left of the UK, (this is not to say that the EU is a left wing organisation, just that the UK is pretty fucking extreme) even under New Labour. All this bollocks about state aid just reveals that they don't understand The EU, or how to operate within its constraints.

The Thing about EU rules is that they are usually created to address a particular problem, usually some form of cheating on the common Market. or to specifically address some form of market failure. Addressing market failures is essentially what you are doing if you are renationalizing rail franchises, it's not a particularly difficult thing to get through. The other thing is that it's a fucking crazy thing to have objections over under the circumstances. It really is the political equivalent of saying that you would definitely turn down a romantic tumble with Scarlet johansen, because she is unsound on the Settlements issue, because the settlements penalize christians. (It's important to get the detail you have elevated to undue prominence wrong)

[anton pulisov]

splitter

[Nefertiti2]

Why Britain has a poor hand in doing trade deals. Thatcher deregulated everything already

[Nefertiti2]

Meanwhile "friends" of Boris Johnson said he'd rather stay in the EU than have a soft Brexit.

"If it [Brexit] ain't Stiff (hard) it ain't worth a fuck" as they used to say in the old days

[Ginger Yellow]

I mean, he's not wrong.

[Snake Plissken]

Farage talking about a second referendum, Johnson preferring no Brexit... the cunts really are beginning to understand what they've done...

[Dav O'Roso]

For once, Bozo is right...

[sw2borshch]

Interestingly, he's after calling for a 'liberal Brexit'.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Farage talking about a second referendum, Johnson preferring no Brexit... the cunts really are beginning to understand what they've done...

They aren't. Farage us trying to stay relevant, Johnson is trying to close off the Norway option.

[Janik]

By which he means a profoundly illiberal one, it's just a repackage of hard brexit.