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    Originally posted by johnr View Post
    As Ursus says. It's a way of making Twitter even more of a self-justifying bubble than it already is, and is generally full of people saying 'Labour doesn't offer an opposition/Corbyn's a Brexiteer' sort of stuff. Which could be claimed at certain points with a little justification, but is really just a cover now for LibDem-type centrism.
    Shouldn't Corbyn do something about it then?

    He's got 28% for best PM. I'd venture he could add quite a few on by strengthening his opposition to Hard Brexit.

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      Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
      Shouldn't Corbyn do something about it then?
      My point is that, whatever he does, many of them are still going to shout 'he's a Brexiteer at heart' - in their case, it's a cover for something else.

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        I wouldn't be so sure. The EU has been popular among Labour "moderates" for 30 years or so.

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          I think it's a cover for some of them, but there is a certain strain of hardcore Remainer for whom Brexit genuinely is the worst, or indeed only bad, political event that has ever affected them personally in their lifetime, and they literally can't comprehend that it isn't the only thing that matters for everyone else too. So they get completely enraged when Corbyn devotes PMQ time to something trivial like homelessness or the NHS or poverty. It's a charmless tactic and, with Brexit on such a knife edge, has the effect of persuading precisely no people to their cause.

          But they're the Grown-ups, apparently.

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            It's also why the only explanation they can come up with for Labour exceeding expectations in the 2017 general election is that all those re-energised young people could only possibly have been motivated by opposition to Brexit

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              I'm absolutely sure. It's not the Labour 'moderates' I'm talking about here. It's the Jolyons and their ilk. They can't stand socialism, but wrap up their disdain in their - justified, of course - pro-EU stuff.

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                Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                I think it's a cover for some of them, but there is a certain strain of hardcore Remainer for whom Brexit genuinely is the worst, or indeed only bad, political event that has ever affected them personally in their lifetime, and they literally can't comprehend that it isn't the only thing that matters for everyone else too. So they get completely enraged when Corbyn devotes PMQ time to something trivial like homelessness or the NHS or poverty. It's a charmless tactic and, with Brexit on such a knife edge, has the effect of persuading precisely no people to their cause.

                But they're the Grown-ups, apparently.
                They can see Hard Brexit being a strong downward pressure on everything else. Unlike McDonnell who reckons everything's fine because "ending austerity".

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                  Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                  It's also why the only explanation they can come up with for Labour exceeding expectations in the 2017 general election is that all those re-energised young people could only possibly have been motivated by opposition to Brexit
                  Labour did a fair bit better in Remain areas in 2017.

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                    They can see Hard Brexit being a strong downward pressure on everything else.
                    Some do, but some have never given a fuck about other policies of the past seven years, and don't see the connection between them and the Brexit mess. So it's less than convincing when they complain that hard Brexit will lead to more of the things they never much complained or campaigned about until June 2016.

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                      And this shrill judgmentalism, this "everyone's gone mad, where have all the sensible people gone" hectoring is so utterly lacking in self-awareness, in reflection, in subtlety, that prevents them from the sort of critical self-examination needed around June 2016's failure and how to remedy it. It's all someone else's fault, someone invariably less clever than them.

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                        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                        And this shrill judgmentalism, this "everyone's gone mad, where have all the sensible people gone" hectoring is so utterly lacking in self-awareness, in reflection, in subtlety, that prevents them from the sort of critical self-examination needed around June 2016's failure and how to remedy it. It's all someone else's fault, someone invariably less clever than them.
                        It's correct though. More people knew about the EU, the more likely they were to vote Remain. I'm not really fussed what somebody with a few thousand twitter followers says. Trump/Brexit is always going to find "elite snobs" looking down on their base, and the base is going to lap it up.

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                          Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                          Some do, but some have never given a fuck about other policies of the past seven years, and don't see the connection between them and the Brexit mess. So it's less than convincing when they complain that hard Brexit will lead to more of the things they never much complained or campaigned about until June 2016.
                          I certainly heard lots of complaints about the NHS from 2010-17, for starters.

                          We might be talking about two different groups of people under the "Jolyons" here. I've got Maugham in mind, who is a wonk sort of bloke who cares a lot about eg assessments of how policies affect various income groups, so see stuff like the Corbyn tuition fees policy as very wasteful. Maybe you and John have Jolyon Green and media professionals in mind. I'm with you much more on them.

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                            You're right. I don't have Maugham in mind – he's an engaged political animal, but certain media professionals definitely, and of course the Lib Dems for whom Brexit has been their "get out of responsibility free" card, something to stress relentlessly in an attempt to waive away their responsibility for the many awful things that happened between 2010 and 2015.

                            In the meantime, a laugh: tomorrow's magnificent Daily Mail front page.

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                              To no great surprise, the Mail produces another wanted poster.

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                                I swear I never heard of the name Jolyon until Brexit. I thought it some made up name till I saw some links to Jolyon Green
                                Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-12-2017, 00:26.

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                                  You not a Tintin man?

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                                    Great use of "veto" to mean "vote" by the Mail there.

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                                      Nah. Asterix was my Gallic comic of choice. Was always disappointing when Glen Michael’s Cartoon Cavalcade had an animated Tintin on 70’s/80’s STV, and not an old Dangermouse.
                                      Last edited by Lang Spoon; 14-12-2017, 00:19.

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                                        Nice to have it officially from the Mail that betraying the Conservative Party is a bad thing in itself. I was naively thinking this was supposed to be about the popular will, albeit crudely.

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                                          "Newly-confident Tories" and "Marxist in No10" are my favourite bits.

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                                            Ian Colin Taylor‏
                                            @iancolintaylor
                                            Replying to @hendopolis
                                            In other words, thank you great Parliamentarians.
                                            Prior to 2010, he was MP in Dominic Raab's seat. Progress, eh?

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                                              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                              "Newly-confident Tories" and "Marxist in No10" are my favourite bits.
                                              Yeah, both good.

                                              David Davis didn't sound all that confident when having to backtrack the other day.

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                                                I'd have thought that "betrayed" 17.4m would be a fairly useful bulwark against May losing the election.

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                                                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                                  Prior to 2010, he was MP in Dominic Raab's seat. Progress, eh?
                                                  My wife's uncle, that. Ian Taylor, not Raab C.
                                                  Last edited by hobbes; 13-12-2017, 23:55.

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                                                    Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                                    Nah. Asterix was my Gallic comic of choice. Was always disappointing when Glen Michael’s Cartoon Cavalcade had an animated Tintin on 70’s/80’s STV, and not an old Dangermouse.
                                                    You should get yourself a copy of that one:

                                                    Comment

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