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    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

    Also, I think people who indulge in racist dog-whistles at a time like this, or at any time, are cunts. But each to their own.

    Who are Pinky and Perky?

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      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

      Tubby Isaacs wrote: I'm happier with Blair, on the whole, than Corbyn and McDonnell.
      I'm going to have to think about that, for days.

      And even then, I still don't think I'll know where to start.

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        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

        Actually, it's not too bad what Blair says there. Security and assimilation certainly are issues there. If they aren't we and lots of people across the EU are wasting a lot of time and money. Someone I know who was high in LEAs and the DfE told me about the time he and social services had to stop girls being taken overseas by parents to be circumsized. Real enough concerns, by the sound of it. It's only a small minority of "the other", of course, and Blair should have said so. But that wasn't really the point of the speech.

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          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

          I think 'Pinky and Perky' might be Corbyn and McDonnell. I think they're being ironically referred to as 'experts in peace' by somebody who prefers Blair, who fully supported a war that...oh, I can't be bothered...

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            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

            johnr wrote:
            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
            I'm happier with Blair, on the whole, than Corbyn and McDonnell.
            I'm going to have to think about that, for days.

            And even then, I still don't think I'll know where to start.
            I meant on the whole about Brexit.

            I'm obviously not suggesting that Blair be rehabilitated overall.

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              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

              Alderman Barnes wrote: No. How could you even give Blair the time of day after the mess he left? But I had higher hopes of Corbyn and McDonnell. What the hell do they think they're playing at?
              I give him time of day on this subject. That's all I'm talking about here.

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                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                johnr wrote: I think 'Pinky and Perky' might be Corbyn and McDonnell. I think they're being ironically referred to as 'experts in peace' by somebody who prefers Blair, who fully supported a war that...oh, I can't be bothered...
                I was on here. I didn't support invading Iraq. And I'm certainly not preferring Blair for it.

                The EU is an essential part of the peace. The people most noisily trying to smash it up are nationalist thugs. If you're interested in peace you join these dots up.

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                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                  But that wasn't really the point of the speech.
                  So why did he say it? He knew what he was doing. And it was sufficiently broad-brush and generalised to give the lie to the idea that he was airing specific concerns about circumcision or whatever. I mean, come on.

                  The trouble with the idea of a Brexit Resistance, now, is that it's come far too late and is far too piecemeal. If the plan was to call for the referendum result to be ignored, a head of steam should have been built up, in a co-ordinated, determined way, from 24 June. But it wasn't. Not in public, not on forums like this, not anywhere. Campaigns of resistance with such a flimsy base cannot hope to succeed. However much we might want them to, and I do too. But the campaign against Brexit is an inchoate mess.

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                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                    Well somebody ought to stick up for the 48%, seeing as nobody else is prepared to. But for God's sake not him, and who knows why he's doing it?

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                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                      Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                      Originally posted by johnr
                      Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                      I'm happier with Blair, on the whole, than Corbyn and McDonnell.
                      I'm going to have to think about that, for days.

                      And even then, I still don't think I'll know where to start.
                      I meant on the whole about Brexit.

                      I'm obviously not suggesting that Blair be rehabilitated overall.
                      My apologies then, for reading it wrong. And getting me hackles up.

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                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                        E10: so what happens now? Are you just going to let them get on with it?

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                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                          I don't know, to be honest. Is it OK, in these days of Thundering Certainty, not to know? I mean, how is Brexit effectively resisted, at a grassroots level? I dunno. Harangue them over every decision, every negotiating step perhaps. Call for another referendum? Campaign for a return to the EU to be included in general election manifestos perhaps. We've not heard much about effective tactics. It's all drowned out in the finger-pointing frenzy as we concentrate on the much more important matter of whose fault it all is.

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                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                            johnr wrote:
                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                            Originally posted by johnr
                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                            I'm happier with Blair, on the whole, than Corbyn and McDonnell.
                            I'm going to have to think about that, for days.

                            And even then, I still don't think I'll know where to start.
                            I meant on the whole about Brexit.

                            I'm obviously not suggesting that Blair be rehabilitated overall.
                            My apologies then, for reading it wrong. And getting me hackles up.
                            Nah, it's my fault. I said "prefer Blair on the whole", didn't I? I can't blame you for understanding that as meaning "I prefer Blair on the whole" really.

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                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                              Alderman Barnes wrote: E10: so what happens now? Are you just going to let them get on with it?
                              For me, I'm going to do what I can to fight the Tories on their EU agenda - that means campaigning, leafletting, debating online, tweeting etc, just like I did for Remain. And we really don't know where we'll be in 6 months time, let alone two years.

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                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                I don't know either, It's just shocking what's happened.

                                I don't like to go on about it but Brexit is the deal-breaker for me. I went abroad when there wasn't much work around at home, settled here and assumed it would be no different to moving to Scotland, which it wasn't at the time.

                                Now it's all been pulled out from under our feet, and there are hundreds of thousands of us in the same boat, and not only did many of us get no say in the matter, we're now political poker cards. And the fucking cheek of the British government to say that the Europeans are holding us hostage is beyond belief. Shitting yourself and blaming everyone else for the stink.

                                I'm undermined by the fact that I got German citizenship a few years ago. Partially it was as an insurance bet - I never thought it would come to this. The way things are going, I might even have to choose between one or the other. I never thought it would come to that.

                                Of course it's a more important issue to me than it is to most people, I'm just surprised that everyone in the UK seems to have decided to accept it and not cause a fuss.

                                Will of the people. my arse. Fuck plebiscites.

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                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                  Obviously not meant as any criticism of you E10. I wish I could say I was as committed as you are.

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                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                    E10 Rifle wrote:
                                    But that wasn't really the point of the speech.
                                    So why did he say it? He knew what he was doing. And it was sufficiently broad-brush and generalised to give the lie to the idea that he was airing specific concerns about circumcision or whatever. I mean, come on.
                                    As you said, he's distinguishing between two different types of immigration, and that there are distinct concerns in each case.

                                    It's also not a great dog whistle if hardly anybody noticed it.

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                                      Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                      johnr wrote:
                                      Originally posted by Alderman Barnes
                                      E10: so what happens now? Are you just going to let them get on with it?
                                      For me, I'm going to do what I can to fight the Tories on their EU agenda - that means campaigning, leafletting, debating online, tweeting etc, just like I did for Remain. And we really don't know where we'll be in 6 months time, let alone two years.
                                      And all credit to you.

                                      Maybe it'll seem less bleak when it's got started, because we'll all be able to agree on undercutting regulations being bad.

                                      My concern now has been that the government have more momentum than they might have had, and if it's considered to be "holding up Brexit" now, lots of people will say the same when he and you fight the detail.

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                                        Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                        Sorry Johnr, all power to you too.

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                                          Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                          You might be right Tubbs. It might not be a dog-whistle. It might instead be a sincere expression of his racist attitudes towards non-European immigrants and Muslims. I trust that will make those defending him feel better about it.

                                          I don't believe you really agree with him on this either. No one progressive should

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                                            Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                            I was at a bit of a do there on thursday Night, and I went for a pint with an Irish Economics professor, an english economics professor and an italian lecturer, and it was very interesting to get the various viewpoints on what is going on. the italian seemed unsure what was going to happen in italy now that the italian national debt was nearly all in italian hands. but it was the discussion of Brexit that was most interesting.

                                            The English academic, who was obviously massively opposed to brexit on the grounds that it was fucking insane, demonstrated an interesting cultural bias. When I asked him about how fucked the UK was by brexit, He seemed happy enough with the estimates that indicated that in ten ten years the economy would be 10% smaller than it might have been had they stayed in the EU. The other economists were more concerned about the UK's Services sector suddenly not being able to export anything at all on leaving the single market, and the loss of about £300 billion in business. Rather than cause the english academic any discomfort, someone suggested that it was difficult for Economics to model non-incremental changes, which is a discrete veil to draw over the issue.

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                                              Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                              The service sector- or at least some of it- has leverage, in that it's a competitive provider of stuff that rEU needs.

                                              The "BMWs!" argument cuts both ways.

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                                                Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                erm, I think this is one of those issues where expectations in the uk and in the EU-27 differ. Particularly when we can just make most of those jobs move.

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                                                  Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                  The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: erm, I think this is one of those issues where expectations in the uk and in the EU-27 differ. Particularly when we can just make most of those jobs move.
                                                  I thought you'd say that.

                                                  When I say leverage, I'm not saying whip hand. I can see a transitional deal there, that's what I mean, followed by gradual decline as it''s picked off by Single Market rules it doesn't like.

                                                  That's better than I see happening more generally for us.

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                                                    Brexit Means: Leaving Single Market, Customs Union European Court of Justice

                                                    Well there's a problem with your leverage. The UK has a very small amount of leverage, and the EU is planning on systematically eliminating that by forcing you to negotiate all the unpalatable things one after the other, rather than altogether. First up is the Bill, which you will have to pay in order to pass go. Then After that the rights of residency for EU citizens, and UK citizens, and once that's off the board, then you get onto the issue of Northern Ireland, and once that's resolved, discussions about a trade deal can begin, and presumably that will start with some sort of deal allowing the EU access London as a financial centre, as it gradually shifts everything over to Europe, and before you know it Article 50 will have run its course, and it will be very difficult to agree anything other than a bare bones FTA. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the EU tells the UK govt that they're going to have to keep the ECJ if they don't want the city of london severed like a dead limb

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