The Brexit Thread

[Ginger Yellow]

A DCMS spokeswoman said: "The prime minister has been clear that while we are leaving the EU, we are not leaving Europe and this has been welcomed by EU leaders.
"We want to continue working with our friends in Europe to promote the long-term economic development of our continent, which may include participating in cultural programmes.
"We remain committed to working with the five UK cities that have submitted bids to help them realise their cultural ambitions and we are in urgent discussions with the Commission on the matter."

So, Brexit doesn't mean Brexit?

It really is breathtaking that 18 months into this process the UK government is still failing to understand that when EU laws talk about "member states", they really mean it.

[NHH]

I think it's the 1921 Treaty they think should be abandoned.

[Nefertiti2]

Christ. That isn't Ireland's position. It was a suggestion, in the absence of anything at all from the UK other than handwaving about technology, on reconciling the commitment of both sides to avoid a hard border with the UK's "hardline approach" that it is leaving the customs union. If the UK or the Spectator has a problem with that, maybe it shouldn't have committed to leaving the customs union while avoiding a hard border. I guess the Spectator could just come out for abandoning the Good Friday Agreement.

Again Peter Geoghegan has done sterling work on this

2000 in Times,Michael Gove wrote against GFA that "The real cause of conflict in Northern Ireland has not been the British presence, but British policy to dilute that presence."

What Te Spectator crowd seem to object to is Ireland going around behaving like a sovereign nation.

PS thanks to Berba for the information on the Royal Irish Academy. Very helpful

[Lang Spoon]

The Spectator thinks Ireland is being unfair

"It won’t just be the money that’s an issue at the December Council. Under its new Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, the Irish Republic has taken a strident tone on the border and Brexit. (If British politicians talked about a majority of the Irish electorate the way Varadkar does about Brexiteers, they would rightly be chastised.) The Irish position is now that there must be a guarantee that Northern Ireland won’t diverge at all from the rules of the single market and the customs union. Essentially, this would have the effect of placing a customs border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK because this country is leaving both the single market and the customs union.

The Irish proposal is quite remarkable: it is a state seeking to divide its neighbour economically. This despite the fact that only 15 per cent of Northern Irish exports go to the Republic while 60 per cent go to the rest of the UK.

It is often said that this idea is a non-starter because of Theresa May’s reliance on the Democratic Unionist Party. But this is to miss the point. Even if she had a majority of 100, she could not accept an internal UK customs border. As one cabinet minister who supported Remain points out to me: ‘It is not just the hard right of the Tory party for whom this is non-negotiable.’

Inside government, there is mounting anger at the way that the Taoiseach and his team are behaving. One normally mild-mannered cabinet member tells me that Varadkar is ‘playing with fire’. Another complains that the Irish foreign minister Simon Coveney has his own leadership ambitions, so is making the situation even worse.

Dublin is taking a huge risk with its hardline approach. No decent UK government could agree to what it is demanding. It is therefore making the collapse of the Brexit talks more likely. If these negotiations do fail, the effect on Ireland’s economy would be dire. As one government source warns: ‘If we crash out, they crash even further.’

If the talks do move on to phase two in December, the UK government will have to quickly set out what it wants. Last weekend, Philip Hammond appeared to suggest that he was moving away from the idea of staying as aligned to the EU as possible in regulation. He suggested that one economic positive of Brexit would be the ability to pursue a different regulatory approach to fast-changing industries. But I understand that the current favoured approach in the Department for Exiting the European Union is for any divergence to be limited to the service sector.

There is a temptation to view the deal with the EU as the determinant of the UK’s future prosperity. But what Britain does itself will be far more important than the terms of our exit. This is why it is crucial that any trade agreement allows this country to go its own way on things such as gene editing, driverless cars and artificial intelligence.

The UK can become a leader in the technologies that will define the 21st century. But it won’t achieve that by blindly following someone’s else regulatory frameworks."

Fraser Nelson confirms the rule never to trust any Scotsman with a surname for a forename. And that govt source can fuck off as well. Ireland will be a bit fucked by Brexit short to medium, but we’ll steal half your fucking jobs long term.

And just how are regulations holding back technological innovation (where Britain is hardly a major player)?

[Toby Gymshorts]

And just how are regulations holding back technological innovation (where Britain is hardly a major player)?

Because thanks to the BLOODY EU, we can't have buildings full of people forced to assemble electronics for a pittance, until they try to commit suicide out of desperation.

Well. Not yet, at least.

[Ginger Yellow]

And just how are regulations holding back technological innovation (where Britain is hardly a major player)?

Eh. There's a pretty strong argument that European privacy, data protection and competition rules have stifled digital innovation, and there's a reason Google et al are American and not European. Generally speaking, though, British people are in favour of those things, so it's far from clear moves to be more like the US in that respect would have any popular support.

[Tubby Isaacs]

They can't get over Ireland having this power. It's almost like you get something back when you "give up sovereignty to Brussels". Not that there was much room in the shitfest of the referendum, but the only person I heard make this point then was Amber Rudd, about climate change. Labour would have been much better placed to make that argument, if the people in charge hadn't been barely-reformed Lexiters whose exposure to EU politics amounted to little more than reading George Monbiot on TPIP and listening to Tosh Gandalf moaning about EU rail policy.

[Lang Spoon]

Eh. There's a pretty strong argument that European privacy, data protection and competition rules have stifled digital innovation, and there's a reason Google et al are American and not European. Generally speaking, though, British people are in favour of those things, so it's far from clear moves to be more like the US in that respect would have any popular support.

The British Govt were the major drivers behind GDPR. If we don’t keep our regs aligned post Brexit no one based here will be able to sell to customers within the EU. Even the smallest website. Even Big US firms will be following GDPR. Madness if we junk all that.

[Ginger Yellow]

Madness if we junk all that.

Agreed, but we're talking about the Spectator here.

[Nefertiti2]

But the Spectator is the lens through which much of political debate in Britain is transmitted. It's chaired by Andrew Neil, BBC's prime politcal interviewer and host of its main political show.Thanks to that connection its writers appear on chat shows, comment shows and write for other papers.

It's Brexit central. It also explains much of the Brexiteers influence.

[Nefertiti2]

Electoral commission not allowed to reveal donations via Northern ireland.


You'll remember money was given to the DUP which funded a wrap around pro brexit flier on the British mainland, where it stands no candidates

It was channeled through the DUP as donations to political parties are secret in Northern Ireland.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Electoral commission not allowed to reveal donations via Northern ireland.


You'll remember money was given to the DUP which funded a wrap around pro brexit flier on the British mainland, where it stands no candidates

It was channeled through the DUP as donations to political parties are secret in Northern Ireland.

The what?!

I'm sure you're right, but how on earth is something like this devolved? Or was it passed by Westminster with a cosy exemption for Northern Ireland?

[anton pulisov]

They Brexiters promised no border in Ireland during the referendum campaign. They also promised that the UK would not leave the single market.

When the fuck are the BBC going to start pointing these things out?

[Nefertiti2]

They Brexiters promised no border in Ireland during the referendum campaign. They also promised that the UK would not leave the single market.
U
When the fuck are the BBC going to start pointing these things out?

They're not going to. Those sections of the British ruling class that think Brexit necessary clearly hold more sway at the BBC than those that consider it a disaster.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Re the Single Market, that's rather been superseded by the general election- both parties said they'd leave it.

[Nefertiti2]

The what?!

I'm sure you're right, but how on earth is something like this devolved? Or was it passed by Westminster with a cosy exemption for Northern Ireland?

"In Northern Ireland, uniquely, donations to and from unincorporated associations are kept secret" . I guess that dates from the Troubles.

[Tubby Isaacs]

"In Northern Ireland, uniquely, donations to and from unincorporated associations are kept secret" . I guess that dates from the Troubles.

That makes sense, sort of.

[Nefertiti2]

Re the Single Market, that's rather been superseded by the general election- both parties said they'd leave it.

Polly Toynbee disagrees

[Tubby Isaacs]

Polly Toynbee disagrees

He added: “We must make sure we obtain tariff-free access to the European markets and protection of all the rights and membership of agencies we have achieved through the European Union.”

But that's basically cake and eat it, isn't it?

Sure there's a different emphasis, and who else is there? But the Irish border issue isn't being tackled properly. If the problem is his previous with Sinn Fein, why not recast himself as the protector of Northern Ireland's status in the UK?

[Tubby Isaacs]

So Leeds (and other UK cities) are unlikely to be eligible to bid for the right to host the European Capital of Culture in 2023, since membership of EFTA or the EU is required.

Dundee have been working on a bid, I think. They'll be really hacked off.

[ursus arctos]

Leeds are "seeking urgent clarification" and appear to be genuinely surprised, which is rather shocking to me.

[Ginger Yellow]

What were they thinking, though? Unless they were being explicitly told by central government to bid anyway, surely they knew they were pissing the money away?

[Nefertiti2]

From SNP MEP Alyn Smith.

'Eligibility is EEA/EFTA or candidate country. Have made some calls, decision is final. “We have to take the UK Ministers at face value, if they get the relationship they say they want they won’t be eligible so best to close it now”'

[Ginger Yellow]

It's not really a decision though. It's what the law says, and has done since 2014.

[ursus arctos]

Quite