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    I know, but I’m not even talking about devolution, just a return of powers and revenue raising powers to the Local Authorities. Even the GLA is a piss weak reflection of the powers enjoyed by the GLC (which was in turn more toothless than its forerunner). You don’t need new parliaments, just take power away from Westminster as much as possible.

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      I don't think people are that fired up by regional assemblies, but a bit of physical manifestation of devolution, like actual regional investment (say, high-speed rail linking up the major conurbations from Liverpool to Newcastle) might make a bit more of a difference. Labour's floating of regional investment banks is a good idea worth fleshing out. Put greater powers for local and regional government on top of that, and we might get somewhere.

      People voted leave for different, sometimes contradictory, reasons –*just as those who voted remain did (I was motivated by little of what motivated George fucking Osborne to put a cross in the same box as me). That should be acknowledged, as should one of the big flaws of the official Remain campaign, the "don't put our prosperity at risk" angle, to which a significant chunk of people clearly turned round and responded "what fucking prosperity?"

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        Re antiquated trains, it's overdue, but lots of new ones are in the pipeline.



        Article here says the Scottish Government deserve credit for weighting their franchise conditions to give more emphasis to service quality than price in 2014, and the DfT have copied it.

        https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/...eir-thousands/

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          I don't think you can use a Metro mayor a flash public figure without much power to a regional assembly. If it had decent budgets and responsibilities, managing transport, public and private, infrastructure, education, culture -more or less everything else a scottish parliament did people would get with the programme soon enough.

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            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
            And the left who are gratuitously nasty and personal.
            The old fascists are jealous, it would appear.

            Banks is an awful human being.

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              I don't think you can use a Metro mayor a flash public figure without much power to a regional assembly.
              I think it also misunderstands where the problem is. The bigger cities in the north aren't where the most obvious and damaging neglect and fucked-ness is - you could superficially stroll through Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle city centres and assume those places to be booming (though they hide a multitude of sins). It's the towns around them that have suffered more. Something tells me the "Northern Powerhouses" are not going to make a thousand flowers bloom in Rochdale or Accrington

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                Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                I don't think people are that fired up by regional assemblies, but a bit of physical manifestation of devolution, like actual regional investment (say, high-speed rail linking up the major conurbations from Liverpool to Newcastle) might make a bit more of a difference. Labour's floating of regional investment banks is a good idea worth fleshing out. Put greater powers for local and regional government on top of that, and we might get somewhere.
                A mega project like HS3 wouldn't really be much to do with devolution. Regional government isn't going to be up to delivering that anywhere.

                Newcastle is a long way north of the other places, so probably going to be more like Liverpool to Hull.

                Yeah, I know it was just an example.

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                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                  Re antiquated trains, it's overdue, but lots of new ones are in the pipeline.



                  Article here says the Scottish Government deserve credit for weighting their franchise conditions to give more emphasis to service quality than price in 2014, and the DfT have copied it.

                  https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/...eir-thousands/
                  Can’t see Wales on there. Have they decided just to keep sellotaping their shitey old trains together?

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                    A mega project like HS3 wouldn't really be much to do with devolution. Regional government isn't going to be up to delivering that anywhere.
                    I know but put a project like that in a package with devolution and it might mean more to people.

                    Part of the problem is there hasn't really been a reversal of the emasculation of local government that Thatcherism began. And there desperately needs to be.

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                      Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                      I know but put a project like that in a package with devolution and it might mean more to people.

                      Part of the problem is there hasn't really been a reversal of the emasculation of local government that Thatcherism began. And there desperately needs to be.
                      I think what you're talking about it central government spending more money in the north, rather than devolution, not that it's an important point. There's a quango (remember when these were bad and had to be abolished?) called Transport for the North which might be useful for building the case for bigger projects, plus the new mayors, so the political pressure should be there in a way that hasn't been there so far. There's actually a decent budget for investment/repair been set aside from 2019-24, provided we escape from Hard Brexit.

                      The Thatcher war on local government was bad indeed. As Simon Jenkins said, she "nationalized" Britain. On the plus side, we don't have a problem with massively indebted local governments like some places do, but some modest borrowing controls would have achieved that.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                        Newcastle is a long way north of the other places, so probably going to be more like Liverpool to Hull.
                        Depends what you count as a major conurbation I suppose. Teesside has about half a million people, and Wearside another 300k.

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                          That would be enough in almost every other country in the old 15 (excepting Ireland) to have good joined up and reasonably fast transport between conurbations of such a size. Though I really don’t understand the need for HS2 let alone 3. Britain from London to Aberdeen is only 7 hours or so. This is a small place compared to Germany, France or Spain. And we aren’t linking directly with those places, there’s a change on the Eurostar, so far less reason for it than a fast network from Berlin/Frankfurt to Paris/Madrid. It will make it easier to commute to London from Brum say (but even now that’s not a huge commuting time). And Manchester will probably see more direct benefit than most of the other stops. But it will do the square root of fuck all positive for the surrounding satellites of the brighter lights.
                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 17-11-2017, 20:59.

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                            Also that looks like an ominously low number of new trains planned for Northern Rail on that list. Further research suggests these will add up to 98 units which I'm pretty sure is less than the number of Pacers they currently operate, not to mention they also have a ton of 30-year-old Sprinters that could do with replacing as well.

                            Comment


                              HS2 is capacity. You get the fast trains off the line, and can run far more other local, semi-fast and freight. It brings more more capacity into London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield. The really high speed bit is secondary, and not all that more expensive.

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                                Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                Also that looks like an ominously low number of new trains planned for Northern Rail on that list. Further research suggests these will add up to 98 units which I'm pretty sure is less than the number of Pacers they currently operate, not to mention they also have a ton of 30-year-old Sprinters that could do with replacing as well.
                                These are new orders. There'll be existing trains "cascaded" to the less busy routes from busier ones.

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                                  Well indeed, that's exactly my worry. That they're planning to replace the 30-year-old Pacers with only marginally less shit 30-year old Sprinters.

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                                    So then an HS4? line between Glasgow and Embra might be of more benefit to Glasgow than having a shiny Hs2 line continuing on from Manchester? Cos the Greater Glasgow rail network is pretty much at terminal capacity. Some kind of mini cross rail between north and south Glasgow, maybe a new Big Station, wouldn’t cost much, but is the stuff of a madman’s dream when the last SLab council had spunked the city deal cash on some unproven tram/train all in one vehicle airport link (dependent on Sheffield trials) onto the Paisley Glasgow line (thereby fucking up capacity at Glasgow Central). Plan is now called in ffs. It always gets me when the focus of light or heavy rail/underground projects is will it get folk from the airport quicker. Prague had three metro lines and a ton of trams, but only buses or taxis to the airport. But the metro goes where people actually live.

                                    But in Dublin, folk are somehow more concerned about a metro link to the airport than to the public transport desert of West Dublin. But the DART underground that looks like getting the go ahead is a tarted up LUAS tram to the airport, replicating much of the DART existing line. The west link will probably get the long finger. Create the new Banilues. M50 being a handy marker.
                                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 18-11-2017, 01:05.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                      Depends what you count as a major conurbation I suppose. Teesside has about half a million people, and Wearside another 300k.
                                      Yeah, I was just thinking about what gets included under the HS3 name, and that tends to be to Hull. If you ever get a decicated fast line, I suppose trains to Middlesbrough, Sunderland and Newcastle would join it near Leeds.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                        England's never really showed any interest in devolution. Blair had a go with regional assemblies, but nobody wanted them. Most people in England are happy with Westminster doing English stuff, just with the Scots not voting. Turnout for the latest "metro mayors" was under 30% everywhere.
                                        I'm not happy with Westminster doing English stuff, but the Manchester mayoral position is absolute shite of the highest order and everyone sees through it.

                                        It's like when they proposed a congestion charge for Manchester, and among other things managed to put all the best car parks inside it, tell everyone it was being paid for by a loan (whereas a similar thing in London was investment) and - hyper-locally - said that they would be putting a Park and Ride scheme in at Hazel Grove station. Sorry, to be more accurate, replacing the signage at Hazel Grove station so it said "Hazel Grove park and ride" instead of "Hazel Grove station car park".

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                                          Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                          Well indeed, that's exactly my worry. That they're planning to replace the 30-year-old Pacers with only marginally less shit 30-year old Sprinters.
                                          Of course they will. We got 30 year old cast-offs from London as part of the new electrification between Liverpool and Manchester. And they can trump the new trains for Northern all they like - the fact is that the Pacers can't run past 2019 anyway so the new trains are a necessity.

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                            So then an HS4? line between Glasgow and Embra might be of more benefit to Glasgow than having a shiny Hs2 line continuing on from Manchester? Cos the Greater Glasgow rail network is pretty much at terminal capacity. Some kind of mini cross rail between north and south Glasgow, maybe a new Big Station, wouldn’t cost much, but is the stuff of a madman’s dream when the last SLab council had spunked the city deal cash on some unproven tram/train all in one vehicle airport link (dependent on Sheffield trials) onto the Paisley Glasgow line (thereby fucking up capacity at Glasgow Central). Plan is now called in ffs. It always gets me when the focus of light or heavy rail/underground projects is will it get folk from the airport quicker. Prague had three metro lines and a ton of trams, but only buses or taxis to the airport.
                                            I've never got why tram-train is so difficult. I assume it'll come good though, and it's got lots of potential. But you wouldn't want to be waiting on that.

                                            The EGIP stuff when finished ought to make a difference, but it'll probably fill up. The SNP inherited grand plans without obvious funding and had to cut them back, I see. I don't know if it's straightforward to add what they had to cut on later.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                              Depends what you count as a major conurbation I suppose. Teesside has about half a million people, and Wearside another 300k.
                                              And transport-wise Tyneside and Wearside are already very well connected on the metro

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                                Of course they will. We got 30 year old cast-offs from London as part of the new electrification between Liverpool and Manchester. And they can trump the new trains for Northern all they like - the fact is that the Pacers can't run past 2019 anyway so the new trains are a necessity.
                                                The fact the trains are 30 years old doesn't mean they're not fine for some routes.

                                                London has 45 year old trains running on the Bakerloo Line, not being replaced any time soon.

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                                                  Nef, but we're talking about fast and direct intercity journeys here, aren't we? There are only 6 direct trains a day between Sunderland and York, for example, even though the distance would be fairly commutable. I wouldn't say Sunderland is particularly well connected to anywhere outside its immediate area (and that's with big satellite towns like Washington and Peterlee not even having train stations.)

                                                  Tubbs, from experience those particular 30-year-old trains are rubbish, slow and uncomfortable, and are used on journeys of up to 3-4 hours.
                                                  Last edited by Fussbudget; 17-11-2017, 22:10.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                                    I've never got why tram-train is so difficult. I assume it'll come good though, and it's got lots of potential. But you wouldn't want to be waiting on that.

                                                    The EGIP stuff when finished ought to make a difference, but it'll probably fill up. The SNP inherited grand plans without obvious funding and had to cut them back, I see. I don't know if it's straightforward to add what they had to cut on later.
                                                    I think Glasgow terminal capacity will soon be reached even with EGIP. Nearly 200 stations in Strathclyde network, and with two more lines to Embra than before (and all 4 electric by 2019 Network Rail permitting) but without the old trams or old joins in the network put back, its creaking now. Having lost two of four terminals to a bus station and a shopping center really fucked connections for the city.

                                                    If they reinstated the Dalmeny cord on EGIP 2.0, there would be a connection from the main Embra Glasgow route to the airport interchange at Edinburgh gateway tram/rail station. Would probably pay for that station far quicker than only being convenient for Fifers, Dundee, Aberdeen folk.
                                                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 17-11-2017, 23:26.

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