A book for Toro if I ever saw one

[Ginger Yellow]

Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence

From a mini-review at Crooked Timber:

Benatar is a terse, unfussy, and careful writer: the argument is complicated, but the writing is excellent, and it is an easy, and compelling, read.

...

His conclusion is that there is a powerful moral reason to try to bring about the extinction of the human species, using whatever means are morally permissible (which include refraining from having children and choosing to have abortions, but do not include murder, even of children, or forced abortion). This is, obviously, a conclusion most people will resist. Personally, I’m probably pretty far on the other end of the spectrum of pro/anti-natalism. The interest is not so much in the conclusion, but in the argument.

So have you read it?

[beak]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

i'm working on a rejoinder called cheer up it may never happen: the joy and exultation of getting out of the house now and then.

"pro/anti-natalism"? really?

[Duncan Gardner]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Benatar is a terse, unfussy, and careful writer

Life is a battlefield?

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Is that your best shot?

[Brandenburger Toro]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

I haven't read it, but it looks well worth a read, yeah.

Er, before I say anymore, why do you associate it with me particularly?

[/puzzled]

[Ginger Yellow]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Partly because of your defence of "well argued but wrong" positions, and partly because of the your position on restricting the autonomy of future humans.

[Gangster Octopus]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Why isn't this in One Touch Books?

[Ginger Yellow]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Because I was drunk when I posted it.

[Brandenburger Toro]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Ah, okay. That makes sense. It's just, I've recently been discussing (not on here) what would be the acceptable limits of population reduction quite a bit.

I don't think there's much to be said for voluntary extinction, though I'd be interested to see a well-made case; but reduction of numbers to a sustainable level is just not something that will happen at an organic level, absent famines, wars, genocides, and other such horrors. Even people who agree on the need for population reduction seem quite happy to breed above the reproduction rate, and the polis is understandably squeamish about any attempt to limit reproduction.

It's a bit of a tough circle to square...

[Guest]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

The way I come to terms with it is to remember that the planet will be swallowed up by the sun eventually, and then the sun will die too. So it doesn't really matter.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Non sequitur, surely?

[Guest]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Well, we can fuck the planet up and we can ruin and destroy everything on it and make it impossible for carbon based lifeforms to ever evolve again, or whatever. Or we can die out and it can heal itself and be full of plant and animal life. but either way the final outcome remains the same.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Yeah, but the non sequitur was deducing from that that "it doesn't matter".

[Guest]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Matter to whom, I suppose.

[Gangster Octopus]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Nothing really matters,
Anyone can see,
Nothing really matters,
Nothing really matters to me...

[Brandenburger Toro]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Ly, isn't that a bit like saying that, I don't know, Pangolins are doomed to extinction so it's okay if I capture one of the last remaining ones and torture it?

Moral judgements are not, and should not be, made sub specie aeternitatis.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Nah, I don't think you necessarily need a "to whom" there; or at least, I think the claim that you do is question-begging.

I mean, the author seems to believe that it's possible to argue from facts about harm to claims about right action. The former are about "what matters to whom", but the latter would seem to be about "what matters, full stop".

Insisting on "matters to whom" amounts to denying that there are legitimate ethical statements separate from how you feel about it and how I feel about it. That denial is defensible, but I don't think it comes for free.

Such a thoroughgoing ethical subjectivism seems also inconsistent with your statement, which of course I'm disputing, that "it doesn't matter", since this statement tacitly suggests that were the ultimate destiny of the Earth different, it would matter.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Toro De France wrote:

Moral judgements are not, and should not be, made sub specie aeternitatis.

And what he said.

[Guest]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Toro De France wrote:

Ly, isn't that a bit like saying that, I don't know, Pangolins are doomed to extinction so it's okay if I capture one of the last remaining ones and torture it?

Moral judgements are not, and should not be, made sub specie aeternitatis.

What's a Pangolin? Erm. Well, no, I don't think so. I don't think it works on the individual level. I think I would have a totally separate objection to that. This was about humans as a species. Maybe you're not allowed to separate them out.

Also 'matter' I can't get my head round anyway, because of all that that WE said. Either something matters to someone specific and therefore not to everyone and in some specific point in time and therefore not "for ever" or there has to be some other external responsibility to something which really I could only conceive of as God.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

But "matters" doesn't mean "matters for ever"; that was what Toro was saying with his sub speckly turny tardis thing, right there.

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

And, I mean, there are secular accounts of "matters, full stop", you know.

[Gangster Octopus]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

Lyra wrote:

What's a Pangolin?

A pangolin yesterday :


And once Toro's finished with it :

[Brandenburger Toro]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

there are secular accounts of "matters, full stop",

No good ones, mind

[Wyatt Earp]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

"Good" in what sense...?

[Brandenburger Toro]

A book for Toro if I ever saw one

heh.