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    Are yer Bidens, Harrises, Buttigiegs or Pelosis any more unifying? With the added hindrance that their principles seem less solid and more dispensable.

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      You take cable news theatre much too seriously

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        Nobody is 'unifying' this early in the process. There isn't even desire for unity until the party's candidate is chosen. Look what happened when the party 'unified' behind Hillary so early; it was considered an undemocratic coronation. You're all making yourselves nuts by worrying about it this early in the game.

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          Originally posted by Bruno

          I guess that's a question for pollsters. I was just alluding to the stories I've read on the spat between Pelosi and AOC. If the party leader is against or annoyed with you, you're probably not unifying. The "face of the party" is eventually going to be the nominee, but Trump's goal is to make that person beholden to "the Squad."
          Pelosi is a 79 year old stalwart and party anchor. AOC is a 29 year old rookie. Besides being women, what alignment do you honestly expect of them relationship-wise? Spat or no spat, by the time AOC can legally be president, Pelosi will be in a pine box.

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            Looking from a distance, wouldn't a Trump message of "the economy's in great shape, our soldiers aren't fighting in any new conflicts and I've made every attempt to make good on my 2016 election promises" go down well with at least a sizable chunk of the electorate?

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              Originally posted by Bruno
              I'm not "worrying" about it, I'm just talking about it. I've washed my hands of this country as a long-term enterprise, but I have to live/work eat/sleep here.
              Right...but you always seem to talk about it a specific tone of impending doom, which....you know...suggests you're worrying about it. You don't seem able to accept that Trump has spent almost three years shocking and horrifying a lot of people (especially swing voters and those with legitimate concerns about Hillary), and his base isn't as big as some might think.

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                I'm sure that many GOP strategists would agree with you, NS.

                The most significant problems with it are that the economy isn't in great shape for many people, that he hasn't really delivered on any of his promises other than judges and that he is in capable of message discipline.

                He also has a foreign policy structure in place that very much wants new conflicts.

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                  I've never read of anything that AOC has said that seems remotely extreme

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                    Indeed. And there's already a "Don't go too mental about Trump's racism, it's what he wants you to do" line being developed by liberals. Here's an example, from the UK commentariat's most hardcore Clinton-worshipper

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                      Originally posted by Bruno

                      I don't know what unity I expect of them, but AOC isn't just any 29-year-old, and the fact that she's so high-profile at only 29 is a big part of the story.
                      I think the fact that she's 29 years old is a big part of the AOC story. She's young, and she's also impetuous / inexperienced enough to say a lot of things that ruffle feathers. She will, most certainly, mellow considerably over the next decade as she learns how to make the levers of power work for her.

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                        Originally posted by Bruno
                        If ANY of the current candidates are unable to defeat Trump, our doom is sealed, and that being apparently the case, I think our doom is sealed.
                        Okay, so this is what I'm talking about. Why is it 'apparently the case' 18 months before the next election? This is the process...it always works like this.

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                          Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                          Well, the next election hangs on five or six states, doesn't it? Let's hope the Dems start making inroads in those,
                          Not necessarily: There are the midwestern states that Trump won because Clinton wasn't focused on them - Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio and Michigan (and Indiana and Iowa, to a lesser extent). But there's a politics and strategy that could win Georgia, Arizona, Florida and North Carolina (all of which except Florida have been trending less Republican for a couple of decades now) that doesn't necessarily win in the mid-west. I don't think it would be good strategy to pin your hopes on Arizona and Georgia, but those are places Democrats should be competing to give themselves more chances of victory.

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                            Originally posted by Bruno

                            Trump is so bad that we should be able to run my dentist for president and see him win. My assumption is that if we nominated at least 10 of the current candidates, all of whom are more viable than my dentist, we'd have a decent chance of losing. It's the fact that it's even close.
                            Right...but you are going on nothing but your 'doom gut'.

                            Where are your poling numbers showing hypothetical matchups with the current 10 leading candidates VS Trump in a hypothetical general election? My assumption is that Biden will take the nomination and walk the election. But if someone is suddenly more appealing and electable than Biden, so much the better. But again, 18 months out....

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                              If you look at current match-up polling (which is usually piss-poor at this stage, but it's the best we have), Biden, Harris, Warren and Sanders all beat Trump. Trump's numbers basically stick between 42 and 44% with an economy that is superficially looking in great shape. The Democrats numbers basically align with their public profile - despite what we think, there are still a good chunk of the public who have no idea about Kamala Harris, and a fair few who don't know about Elizabeth Warren. So, there's more "don't knows" for those candidates, but Trump's numbers never improve.

                              Even a minor recession (of the sort that I feel is just around the corner) should completely scupper Trump, because the economy is literally the only thing that people who aren't the racist hardcore don't despise about him.

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                                There are too many variables this far out. The economy is buoyant by no means booming, jobs are insecure and another flurry import of restrictions could change things rapidly. OTOH there's no overseas conflict right now but one could easily be manufactured. And, in the short term, it's a time-tested method method of "bringing people together for the sake of the country."

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                                  But Trump "beat" Clinton 46-48%. If Trump can't poll better than 44% against relatively unknown candidates who haven't really campaigned yet, and with a decent economy, he's probably not going to win again. Of course there's a chance that he'll win, but right now isn't the time for the feelings of doom. Right now, you'd expect any of the top 10 Democrats to beat him in a general election.

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                                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                    Indeed. And there's already a "Don't go too mental about Trump's racism, it's what he wants you to do" line being developed by liberals. Here's an example, from the UK commentariat's most hardcore Clinton-worshipper
                                    Why do AOC and Rashida tlaieb. look grey skinned in a lot of the pictures that you see on newspaper sites? Is it just the result of flash photography, or an unfortunate artifact of colour adjustment for print. (I first noticed this sort of thing when Gina Miller looked very different in every newspaper)
                                    Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 17-07-2019, 17:09.

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                                      Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                                      There are too many variables this far out. The economy is buoyant by no means booming, jobs are insecure and another flurry import of restrictions could change things rapidly. OTOH there's no overseas conflict right now but one could easily be manufactured. And, in the short term, it's a time-tested method method of "bringing people together for the sake of the country."
                                      The US is heading for a massive economic disaster the next time the global economy takes a bit of a down turn. The US didn't go half far enough in addressing the obvious failure of regulations that turned the last downturn into a crisis, but for the last three years it's been safeties off, full steam ahead, and they've adopted a massively pro cyclical budgetary policy, where they borrow a hell of a lot of money to pump into the economy in the good times. What happens to the US budget deficit when that goes wrong?

                                      For the sake of American democracy, it's quite important that this disaster happens before the next election, so Trump loses and the blame is put on him. Because if a) trump wins re-election, and then the economy crashes, the republicans will use it to finally finish off much of the federal govt, b) if a democrat wins, they will be blamed, and at the next election 60% of americans will vote for the reanimated corpse of Himmler at the next election.

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                                        How is the gerrymandering going (there's a thread for the election btw but here's as good as anywhere I suppose)? Or are the courtrooms already packed with GOP nominees?

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                                          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                          But Trump "beat" Clinton 46-48%.
                                          Federer won more points than Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, which is a trite but pertinent comparison.

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                                            Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                                            Federer won more points than Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, which is a trite but pertinent comparison.
                                            Even worse than that, he won 6 more games.

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                                              Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                                              How is the gerrymandering going (there's a thread for the election btw but here's as good as anywhere I suppose)? Or are the courtrooms already packed with GOP nominees?
                                              Mixed at the moment. There won't be another major wave until after the 2020 Census.

                                              That said, the Supreme Court deciding that political gerrymandering is outside of their remit is very unhelpful.

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                                                Originally posted by Bruno

                                                Picking up on this (and not having read your link yet) I don't think anyone on the left should necessarily base their decisions on a fear of playing into Trump's Machiavellian hands, but calling out racist people and statements doesn't strike me as an effective way to move the political needle.
                                                So what do you perceive is the right way to respond to open racism coming from the president?

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                                                  Either. Both.

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                                                    The Dems need to energize their base and ignore racists who won't vote for them anyways. Hillary took the BAME vote for granted and they didn't turn out for her. Or she wouldn't have lost Michigan/Penn.

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