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    How is the gerrymandering going (there's a thread for the election btw but here's as good as anywhere I suppose)? Or are the courtrooms already packed with GOP nominees?

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      I'm more focused on the polarization damage than on the outcome of the election. If Trump wins, we're finished. If he loses, there's a high chance his supporters will regard the winner as illegitimate, and a 100% chance the GOP will be vicious toward the winner. I don't think Trump will refuse to decamp from the West Wing, but I wouldn't expect a drop in political and social tension.

      I think we're so used to partisan gridlock that we've started to look back on Trump's misdeeds as products of more of the same. As it unfolded, seeing the GOP fall behind Trump was stunning. There was a lot of Never Trump noise before and shortly after the election, and then corruption shoes kept dropping, we suddenly moved into uncharted waters and nothing was done. It all looks predictable in retrospect but we wasted many hours wondering when the house of cards would collapse. Remember how much talk there used to be of Trump never surviving his first term? He's done much worse than Nixon, who was nearly impeached by a Republican Congress, and Democrats today are arguing about the imprudence of impeachment.

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        Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
        But Trump "beat" Clinton 46-48%.
        Federer won more points than Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, which is a trite but pertinent comparison.

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          Originally posted by Sporting View Post

          Federer won more points than Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, which is a trite but pertinent comparison.
          Even worse than that, he won 6 more games.

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            Originally posted by Sporting View Post
            How is the gerrymandering going (there's a thread for the election btw but here's as good as anywhere I suppose)? Or are the courtrooms already packed with GOP nominees?
            Mixed at the moment. There won't be another major wave until after the 2020 Census.

            That said, the Supreme Court deciding that political gerrymandering is outside of their remit is very unhelpful.

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              Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
              Indeed. And there's already a "Don't go too mental about Trump's racism, it's what he wants you to do" line being developed by liberals. Here's an example, from the UK commentariat's most hardcore Clinton-worshipper
              Picking up on this (and not having read your link yet) I don't think anyone on the left should necessarily base their decisions on a fear of playing into Trump's Machiavellian hands, but calling out racist people and statements doesn't strike me as an effective way to move the political needle. If anyone wasn't convinced by Birtherism that Trump is a racist, or by his and his father's dealings in real estate, or the Central Park Five story, or the hundred examples of racism before the latest tweet scandal since he took office, they never could be.

              As long as he doesn't lace a tweet with the N-word or something, he's in the clear as far as they're concerned, and mocking "call-out culture" is their favorite thing. Identifying racism as such is the right thing to do, but I wouldn't expect it to change anything and I would expect it to delight the trolls who are his base. I want to say there are two kinds of racists, those who know it and are proud of it, and those who don't know it, i.e. are sure they're not despite the racist implications and outcomes of their views, and could never be convinced of it. Most fall into the latter group.

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                Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                Picking up on this (and not having read your link yet) I don't think anyone on the left should necessarily base their decisions on a fear of playing into Trump's Machiavellian hands, but calling out racist people and statements doesn't strike me as an effective way to move the political needle.
                So what do you perceive is the right way to respond to open racism coming from the president?

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                  The right way politically or morally?

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                    Either. Both.

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                      Well, I'm no political adviser but I would say when in doubt of the political cost, just do the right thing so you can look in the mirror.

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                        The Dems need to energize their base and ignore racists who won't vote for them anyways. Hillary took the BAME vote for granted and they didn't turn out for her. Or she wouldn't have lost Michigan/Penn.

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                          I don't know about the best way to word a condemnation of racism. You have to at least please your own supporters by being openly against it.

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                            They didn't turn out for her because she was a deeply flawed candidate AND ran a poor campaign. If you don't think the Dems have an energize base after 3 years of Trump....well, I'm not sure how to end that sentence.

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                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                              The Dems need to energize their base and ignore racists who won't vote for them anyways. Hillary took the BAME vote for granted and they didn't turn out for her. Or she wouldn't have lost Michigan/Penn.
                              They should do it anyway, regardless of any political calculations. i mean I don;t believe it is politically damaging, but when people (especially those in power and with influence) say out and out racist things they need to be called out (I mean they need to be called out when they use racist tropes even if they're more subtle, but "send them home" is about as clear cut as it possible to be)

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                                Originally posted by Bruno View Post
                                He's done much worse than Nixon, who was nearly impeached by a Republican Congress, and Democrats today are arguing about the imprudence of impeachment.
                                Both houses of Congress during Nixon's terms were comfortably Democratic.

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                                  And there were Republicans on both Judiciary Committees who were interested in finding the truth of what had happened.

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                                    So morally and ethically, the Rs are worse than ever...I mean ever (?).

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                                      Hard to imagine a Howard Baker today.

                                      Good god, the R's are worse than ever. Yes, EVER!

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                                        It's almost frightening to see so many Republicans with such a lack of character or backbone or both. I mean, Mitt couldn't even muster the R word in answer to a direct question. "That's all I've got". Indeed, Mitt.

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                                          Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                                          I guess that's a question for pollsters. I was just alluding to the stories I've read on the spat between Pelosi and AOC. If the party leader is against or annoyed with you, you're probably not unifying. The "face of the party" is eventually going to be the nominee, but Trump's goal is to make that person beholden to "the Squad."
                                          If your party leader is the daughter of a corrupt party boss with mob connections you're probably not very good at winning people's hearts and minds.

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                                            Just my PoV but haven't the Republicans got increasingly self-absorbed and bat-shit crazy post Eisenhower? Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Son of Bush,Trump. Each increasingly right wing, increasingly isolationist, and isolated, and less interested in government by the people and for the people. Ike's administration would seem like a bunch of goddam commie-socialists to many members of today's GOP.
                                            Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 17-07-2019, 20:30.

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                                              There was Bush I's brief flirtation with "compassionate conservatism", but that narrative is pretty solid.

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                                                Originally posted by Cal Alamein View Post

                                                Both houses of Congress during Nixon's terms were comfortably Democratic.
                                                Ah, then was it that they needed Republican votes in order to actually impeach him and were sure they had them?

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                                                  Do you mean remove or impeach?

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                                                    Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                                                    Ah, then was it that they needed Republican votes in order to actually impeach him and were sure they had them?
                                                    That's why I threw out Howard Baker.

                                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NXkr9yuw0

                                                    Literally unthinkable for the last 20+ yrs or so.

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