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    #26
    I really think that it's the fundamental Christians who have a "fixed historical meaning" of the word. They are the ones outside of Israel who are most aggressively pushing a Zionist agenda in the worst sense of the word.

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      #27
      That is rather more plausible to me, though I know many fewer Fundamentalist Christians.

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        #28
        I mean 'religious' as opposed to 'secular'. I am not sure that 'theist' and 'agnostic/atheist' works in this respect. Religious Jews are broadly agreed on the Talmudic definition of Zionism - a return to an Jewish homeland of Israel and specifically Jerusalem.

        The "fixed historical meaning" I was talking about was the secular Jews' Zionism (political Zionism, if you want) which is based on Herzl and his reaction to the Dreyfus Affair which effectively led to the formation of Israel not the religious Jews' version which is somewhat more interpretive. I am aware that there is an element of flexibility in interpretation in religious Judaism which is why I said "taking into account any religion's capacity for interpreting its scriptures, rituals and traditions". However, while I know that there is a tradition in Judaism of "Arguing with God" and, as a rabbi, said to me "if you have 40 rabbis in a room, you will get 41 opinions" but I have never found Jews any more interpretive than any other religion certainly not my home ground of Christianity.

        Like I say, many Jews - both religious and not - disagree with Zionism but I am not sure that, even in these cases, the term is contested that much.

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          #29
          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
          That is rather more plausible to me, though I know many fewer Fundamentalist Christians.
          You should leave your East Coast Elitist Bubble more.

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            #30
            Bored, I honestly don't recognise the world you are describing, as I come from a place where what you call 'religious Jews" differ with respect to virtually everything (which is part of the reason why we have a dozen synagogues) and where terms like "Zionism" are particularly contentious and evolving. But I understand that your experience is different. I just don't think it is universal (nor is mine, of course).

            FF, I know, but when I do, I enter the Northern California Elitist Bubble or the Western European Elitist Bubble. Since I wrote that sentence, I've been struggling with whether I really "know" any Fundamentalist Christians, and am not sure that I really do (though I did know a handful well while in Uni, the ones I was closest to have all left their churches).

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              #31
              Consider yourself blessed.

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                #32
                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                we have a dozen synagogues within a ten minute walk of our flat, which I recognise is unusual.
                Does this mean 'leave the building, walk for ten minutes in a straight line, then draw a circle with that radius'? Or does it mean that if you walked for ten minutes on a loop beginning and ending at your building, you'd pass a dozen? Because if it's the former, my father in law might just be able to run you close (I'm looking at a map of all the synagogues in BA now). At least if he was allowed to use me as the walker (I walk somewhat faster than he does).

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                  #33
                  Actually looking at the distances more closely, he's probably got seven, maybe eight. If I could stop all the traffic and was allowed to run, I'd fancy my chances of getting a radius that would pull in over a dozen, though.

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                    #34
                    The former, yes. If only because there is a major river across the street. Also, some are essentially one floor of a brownstone, they aren't all grand and don't all show up on most maps.

                    I'd be interested in your father in law's view on the underlying question.

                    I'd also be interested in which one of us lives among more peychiatrists and mental health professionals. We have a dozen in our building (not counting those who live here, but don't have an office here).
                    Last edited by ursus arctos; 31-08-2018, 02:15.

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                      #35
                      Buenos Aires has more psychologists per 1,000 people than anywhere outside Manhattan, or so they like to claim. And Buenos Aires has a lot more people than Manhattan.

                      No way am I asking my father in law's views on the Israel–Palestine issue. He's got a cousin who lives there (she's over visiting at the moment, actually. Lovely lady). I'd be surprised if he has much time for the current Israeli government, and I don't think his opinion is likely to be an especially strong one, but ... yeah. I'm not going to ask, in the same way as we've never sat down to have a conversation about the Falklands. Even people my own age have some pretty depressing opinions on it down here (not my girlfriend, I hasten to clarify).

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                        #36
                        I was only talking about the idea of a “fixed historical meaning” of Zionism among “religious Jews”, but I completely understand.

                        It is interesting to me that you call A your girlfriend, but her dad your father-in-law, though I’m pretty sure that I used to do that occasionally myself.

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                          #37
                          Girlfriend reckons he wouldn't be against the idea of the Jewish people having a nation where they can feel protected as a race. She doubts that he's fine with the oppression of Palestinian people, and he doesn't follow the news from Israel very much.

                          I have just read a short extract from your post to her, with hand signals to indicate your quotation marks, and her response is, 'So he means ... Orthodox Jews? Or does he mean secular religious Jews? Or Jews who think they are part of a larger community but don't give a fuck about religion?'

                          I further explained to her Bored's (apparent) idea that all 'religious Jews' have a single fixed idea of Zionism, and she (giving her own opinion) responded, 'Oh ... no. I don't think so.' then after a bit more talk, 'I think it's become diversified to mean lots of different things to lots of different people.' She reckons it's been good for the Jewish people to have a place, but doesn't necessarily reckon Israel is the best place to have that place. And she's not on board with the whole Apartheid thing.

                          She has been given editorial oversight of all of the above, and has approved my posting it.

                          The FIL thing has just been easier, really. Until literally just this minute. In Spanish, I was always told that your girlfriend's parents are your suegros, and if you get married they're still your suegros. I was told this by my first Argentine girlfriend, on the first day I arrived in Argentina. My current girlfriend, fifteen years on, has just while I've been writing this sentence told me that this is bollocks, and that her dad wouldn't be on board with me calling him my suegro since we're not married. So I'm going to try and stop doing it, although that won't be easy after seven and a half years. I need a new word for him now.

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                            #38
                            Father-in-common-law

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                              #39
                              Haha! We have a civil union, so there is a law of sorts under which we're recognised, here at least – not in the UK obviously, where there's no such thing as a heterosexual civil union even if we had tried to register it with anyone there. But he isn't absolutely delighted about us being in that (no problem with me or with us being together; he's just baffled as to why we didn't get married, and wishes we would).

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                                #40
                                How do you express the concept of a "false nine" in Argentinian Spanish football parlance? Could he be a "false suegro"? (since a false nine is a valid and important position I'm attempting to offer something positive)

                                Or "Father by way of Unión Civil" or "FUCer" for short

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                                  #41
                                  Israel's men are over for a mini-tour next week. Scotland in the Bonkers League and a NI friendly. I'm not going to the latter

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                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                    Bored, I honestly don't recognise the world you are describing, as I come from a place where what you call 'religious Jews" differ with respect to virtually everything (which is part of the reason why we have a dozen synagogues) and where terms like "Zionism" are particularly contentious and evolving.
                                    I don't know whether you are able canvas this but I would be interested to know what religious Jewish alternative definitions there are to Zionism being a return of Jews to Israel and, specifically, Jerusalem (Mount Zion being the Temple Mount) as per the Talmudic prophecies. I know that, for instance in Rastafari, Zion is regarded as a spiritual rather than actual place but, as far as I have ever understood, there is no form of Judaism that believes that.

                                    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                    I was only talking about the idea of a “fixed historical meaning” of Zionism among “religious Jews”, but I completely understand.
                                    I appreciate that you may be taking this idea further but you do realise that I never said that there was a “fixed historical meaning” of Zionism among “religious Jews” - I said that there was a “fixed historical meaning” amongst secular (or, if you want, non-religious Jews) being from the mid-1800s, European persecution, the Dreyfus Affair, Herzl etc.

                                    *On re-reading of last night's posts, I realised that, as a secular religious Christian myself, using those two adjectives as automatic opposites was confusing. I was thinking of using "cultural Jews" but that doesn't seem quite right either so will go with "non-religious".
                                    Last edited by Bordeaux Education; 31-08-2018, 09:45.

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                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post
                                      I mean 'religious' as opposed to 'secular'. I am not sure that 'theist' and 'agnostic/atheist' works in this respect. Religious Jews are broadly agreed on the Talmudic definition of Zionism - a return to an Jewish homeland of Israel and specifically Jerusalem.

                                      The "fixed historical meaning" I was talking about was the secular Jews' Zionism (political Zionism, if you want) which is based on Herzl and his reaction to the Dreyfus Affair which effectively led to the formation of Israel not the religious Jews' version which is somewhat more interpretive. I am aware that there is an element of flexibility in interpretation in religious Judaism which is why I said "taking into account any religion's capacity for interpreting its scriptures, rituals and traditions". However, while I know that there is a tradition in Judaism of "Arguing with God" and, as a rabbi, said to me "if you have 40 rabbis in a room, you will get 41 opinions" but I have never found Jews any more interpretive than any other religion certainly not my home ground of Christianity.

                                      Like I say, many Jews - both religious and not - disagree with Zionism but I am not sure that, even in these cases, the term is contested that much.
                                      I don't know if you read the link I posted up-thread about zionism as an identity. That really challenges the notion of a "fixed historical meaning" (or even fixed contemporary meaning) of zionism.

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                                        #44
                                        Yes, sorry, missed that. Yes, that is an interesting article. It does give an alternative and more benign historical option for Zionism (not displacing Palestinians) which can also be used as future blueprint. Obviously, in retrospect, there appears no way that Israel could be formed without displacement of the Palestinians but I don't think that even Herzl was calling for that. My question is whether there was ever any form of Zionism that, in itself, called for the displacement of Palestinians (or, I suppose, Argentinians or Ugandans in other scenarios). I genuinely don't know but I have never heard of a form of Zionism that, over above the intrinsic formation of a state for the diaspora to return to, calls for the displacing or complete expelling of the previous inhabitants. This, actually, is one way that, historically, at least, Zionism does not equate with apartheid (as the author mentions) whatever it has become now.
                                        Last edited by Bordeaux Education; 31-08-2018, 10:50.

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                                          #45
                                          Sam, please convey my heartfelt thanks to A.

                                          She's always impressed me, and I very much hope that we meet some day, either in BA or here (next year in Jerusalem being highly unlikely).

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                                            #46
                                            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                            I very much hope that we meet some day... (next year in Jerusalem being highly unlikely)
                                            This was one of my late mother's favorite sayings. She had two spells living there in the 60s and 70s and had many friends in the area- both locals and from the foreign community (including many Irish working for the United Nations). But like Ursus I have little intention of revisiting.

                                            Anyway back on topic with a lame gag. Norn Iron are hoping to follow up our imminent friendly with a 2019/20 return in suburban Tel Aviv.

                                            Rishon T'Zion?

                                            Steady on, we haven't even discussed possible dates yet.

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                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                              Sam, please convey my heartfelt thanks to A.

                                              She's always impressed me, and I very much hope that we meet some day, either in BA or here (next year in Jerusalem being highly unlikely).
                                              Fingers crossed we will. Although given recent economic developments down here (and what might be said by the government in the next 36 hours or so) and her own unease at jumping through US immigration hoops for so much as a holiday visa, I think it's rather more likely it'll be in Buenos Aires than up north ...

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                                                #48
                                                Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post
                                                Yes, sorry, missed that. Yes, that is an interesting article. It does give an alternative and more benign historical option for Zionism (not displacing Palestinians) which can also be used as future blueprint. Obviously, in retrospect, there appears no way that Israel could be formed without displacement of the Palestinians but I don't think that even Herzl was calling for that. My question is whether there was ever any form of Zionism that, in itself, called for the displacement of Palestinians (or, I suppose, Argentinians or Ugandans in other scenarios). I genuinely don't know but I have never heard of a form of Zionism that, over above the intrinsic formation of a state for the diaspora to return to, calls for the displacing or complete expelling of the previous inhabitants. This, actually, is one way that, historically, at least, Zionism does not equate with apartheid (as the author mentions) whatever it has become now.
                                                Statist Zionism - i.e. a demand for the creation of a Jewish nation state - would necessarily involve ethnic cleansing. Non-statist Zionism doesn't necessarily involve that.

                                                The comparison to Y Wladfa is a reasonable one.

                                                Of course, marginalised people seeking a new homeland were still agents of colonialism for colonial powers. The Welsh settlers were a tool used by the Argentine government as part of their campaign of genocide against the Mapuche - while Jewish migration (to Argentina, to Uganda, to Palestine) was encouraged by various colonial powers at various different times.

                                                I just read this (mostly about Wales and colonial denialism) about Y Wladfa - which explores the comparison of Welsh settlement with the pre-state Zionist movement.

                                                http://www.iwa.wales/click/2015/06/n...of-settlement/

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                                                  #49
                                                  https://mondoweiss.net/2018/09/israe...orses-zionism/

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